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Post by LokisMom on Nov 6, 2023 22:41:16 GMT 1
I wish we could be more engaged here. It’s fallen off a lot lately. Maybe all MCU forums are depressed.
There are days when there is no activity and only one or two posts when it is active. This doesn’t attract new forum members. Kinda sad.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Nov 6, 2023 23:10:30 GMT 1
I wish we could be more engaged here. It’s fallen off a lot lately. Maybe all MCU forums are depressed. There are days when there is no activity and only one or two posts when it is active. This doesn’t attract new forum members. Kinda sad. I think it's fair to say that this isn't and never really has been an "MCU fan forum" in the strictest sense. This forum covers a wide variety of topics. I can attest to there being plenty of MCU-only fan forums that are still thriving. It also doesn't help that MCU sentiment here is typically neutral to negative (with a few notable exceptions). I post regularly on a couple of forums, and in the end, it comes down to maximizing your time and posting where you think you're likely to start a conversation (if that is your goal). In all fairness, I have yet to see you start many (or perhaps any) topics here. You never know; you might get more engagement that way.
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Post by LokisMom on Nov 7, 2023 6:19:29 GMT 1
I wish we could be more engaged here. It’s fallen off a lot lately. Maybe all MCU forums are depressed. There are days when there is no activity and only one or two posts when it is active. This doesn’t attract new forum members. Kinda sad. I think it's fair to say that this isn't and never really has been an "MCU fan forum" in the strictest sense. This forum covers a wide variety of topics. I can attest to there being plenty of MCU-only fan forums that are still thriving. It also doesn't help that MCU sentiment here is typically neutral to negative (with a few notable exceptions). I post regularly on a couple of forums, and in the end, it comes down to maximizing your time and posting where you think you're likely to start a conversation (if that is your goal). In all fairness, I have yet to see you start many (or perhaps any) topics here. You never know; you might get more engagement that way. I’m talking about the entire menu, though I tend to associate Sakaar with Marvel because of the name. My bad. I’ve been a member sin ce Oct 2021 and produced about 45 threads and 22 pages of response posts, I daresay 95% of it MCU related. Is that good or bad? I do come here almost everyday to see if there is an active conversation and lately it’s been slim pickins. So why bother starting something, if it gets a cold shoulder. I know compared to my political IMDb’s output, that’s a drop. Since we can’t do controversial topics that might offend, that limits a lot of philosophical topics I‘d like to address…and I do try to squeeze it on the podcast when I can. However, I’m thinking in terms of the Podcast of Champions, which I joined not long after joining this board. GM plugs it on each podcast and I’d like to see our audience grow, but if any new viewers come looking for a new group of online friends to share Marvel or the other properties, they may feel ignored. I’m sorta hurt Loki S2 hasn’t generated more talk. That character is the sole reason I became hooked on the MCU about three years ago and started getting into fan boards and podcasting. And I didn’t really like Tom Hiddleston until then because I associated him as one of Taylor Swift’s jilted boyfriends. By all accounts, this show is sterling success, we get enthusiastic on podcast, even in the after talk, then nothing the next day. We used to at least have a fun with plot theories.
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Post by ])-Kyle "Wild Child" Gibney-([ on Nov 7, 2023 7:01:08 GMT 1
I think it's fair to say that this isn't and never really has been an "MCU fan forum" in the strictest sense. This forum covers a wide variety of topics. I can attest to there being plenty of MCU-only fan forums that are still thriving. It also doesn't help that MCU sentiment here is typically neutral to negative (with a few notable exceptions). I post regularly on a couple of forums, and in the end, it comes down to maximizing your time and posting where you think you're likely to start a conversation (if that is your goal). In all fairness, I have yet to see you start many (or perhaps any) topics here. You never know; you might get more engagement that way. I’m talking about the entire menu, though I tend to associate Sakaar with Marvel because of the name. My bad. I’ve been a member sin ce Oct 2021 and produced about 45 threads and 22 pages of response posts, I daresay 95% of it MCU related. Is that good or bad? I do come here almost everyday to see if there is an active conversation and lately it’s been slim pickins. So why bother starting something, if it gets a cold shoulder. I know compared to my political IMDb’s output, that’s a drop. Since we can’t do controversial topics that might offend, that limits a lot of philosophical topics I‘d like to address…and I do try to squeeze it on the podcast when I can. However, I’m thinking in terms of the Podcast of Champions, which I joined not long after joining this board. GM plugs it on each podcast and I’d like to see our audience grow, but if any new viewers come looking for a new group of online friends to share Marvel or the other properties, they may feel ignored. I’m sorta hurt Loki S2 hasn’t generated more talk. That character is the sole reason I became hooked on the MCU about three years ago and started getting into fan boards and podcasting. And I didn’t really like Tom Hiddleston until then because I associated him as one of Taylor Swift’s jilted boyfriends. By all accounts, this show is sterling success, we get enthusiastic on podcast, even in the after talk, then nothing the next day. We used to at least have a fun with plot theories. I can only speak for myself but Im just not as invested in it anymore. After both She-Hulk and Secret Invasion were disappointments..it's like meh..not that excited for the Marvels either..hell I dont think even Feige is that enthusiastic anymore..friend of mine said he used to be the biggest cheerleader of the mcu..if that aint a sign-i dont know what is I like Loki but there's not that much to discuss. I mean what was the last episode about? Getting the gang back together, that was literally it lol Echo looks promising
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Post by Lord Death Man on Nov 7, 2023 8:01:24 GMT 1
I think it's fair to say that this isn't and never really has been an "MCU fan forum" in the strictest sense. This forum covers a wide variety of topics. I can attest to there being plenty of MCU-only fan forums that are still thriving. It also doesn't help that MCU sentiment here is typically neutral to negative (with a few notable exceptions). I post regularly on a couple of forums, and in the end, it comes down to maximizing your time and posting where you think you're likely to start a conversation (if that is your goal). In all fairness, I have yet to see you start many (or perhaps any) topics here. You never know; you might get more engagement that way. I’m talking about the entire menu, though I tend to associate Sakaar with Marvel because of the name. My bad. I’ve been a member sin ce Oct 2021 and produced about 45 threads and 22 pages of response posts, I daresay 95% of it MCU related. Is that good or bad? I do come here almost everyday to see if there is an active conversation and lately it’s been slim pickins. So why bother starting something, if it gets a cold shoulder. I know compared to my political IMDb’s output, that’s a drop. Since we can’t do controversial topics that might offend, that limits a lot of philosophical topics I‘d like to address…and I do try to squeeze it on the podcast when I can. However, I’m thinking in terms of the Podcast of Champions, which I joined not long after joining this board. GM plugs it on each podcast and I’d like to see our audience grow, but if any new viewers come looking for a new group of online friends to share Marvel or the other properties, they may feel ignored. I’m sorta hurt Loki S2 hasn’t generated more talk. That character is the sole reason I became hooked on the MCU about three years ago and started getting into fan boards and podcasting. And I didn’t really like Tom Hiddleston until then because I associated him as one of Taylor Swift’s jilted boyfriends. By all accounts, this show is sterling success, we get enthusiastic on podcast, even in the after talk, then nothing the next day. We used to at least have a fun with plot theories. Sigh… The anti-fandom has leeched most of the enjoyment from what was once a thriving and unified fandom. It's a shame that the MCU has been overshadowed by critical dissection. I see dozens of YouTubers on the MCU hate train after being completely mesmerized by the movies for the past decade and a half. Some built their channels around the brand and now have far fewer views and subs. They're literally destroying their own livelihood in some cases. The end of the MCU will mark the end of the CBM genre. The MCU was the gold standard; no contender will rise to take its place - if the MCU dies, the genre will die. Video game adaptations may be the new trend. It's too bad that the gaming community is exponentially more problematic and toxic than CBM fans ever could be. Your commitment to the Sakaar community is commendable. It's understandable to feel disheartened when the response is lackluster, especially when it concerns something as dear to you as Loki's character and the associated series. Engagement ebbs and flows, and this may just be a quieter season. Since MCU discussion and excitement have dried up, I've returned to reading classic comic book stories. I'm working through the Claremont / Romita Jr. run on the X-Men, which is fantastic. The movies don't even come close. My advice, if you're looking to mainline, skip the Hollywood BS train and go straight to the source.
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Post by ])-Kyle "Wild Child" Gibney-([ on Nov 7, 2023 8:15:38 GMT 1
I’m talking about the entire menu, though I tend to associate Sakaar with Marvel because of the name. My bad. I’ve been a member sin ce Oct 2021 and produced about 45 threads and 22 pages of response posts, I daresay 95% of it MCU related. Is that good or bad? I do come here almost everyday to see if there is an active conversation and lately it’s been slim pickins. So why bother starting something, if it gets a cold shoulder. I know compared to my political IMDb’s output, that’s a drop. Since we can’t do controversial topics that might offend, that limits a lot of philosophical topics I‘d like to address…and I do try to squeeze it on the podcast when I can. However, I’m thinking in terms of the Podcast of Champions, which I joined not long after joining this board. GM plugs it on each podcast and I’d like to see our audience grow, but if any new viewers come looking for a new group of online friends to share Marvel or the other properties, they may feel ignored. I’m sorta hurt Loki S2 hasn’t generated more talk. That character is the sole reason I became hooked on the MCU about three years ago and started getting into fan boards and podcasting. And I didn’t really like Tom Hiddleston until then because I associated him as one of Taylor Swift’s jilted boyfriends. By all accounts, this show is sterling success, we get enthusiastic on podcast, even in the after talk, then nothing the next day. We used to at least have a fun with plot theories. Sigh… The anti-fandom has leeched most of the enjoyment from what was once a thriving and unified fandom. It's a shame that the MCU has been overshadowed by critical dissection. I see dozens of YouTubers on the MCU hate train after being completely mesmerized by the movies for the past decade and a half. Some built their hold channels around the brand and now have far fewer views and subs. They're literally destroying their own livelihood in some cases. The end of the MCU will mark the end of the CBM genre. The MCU was the gold standard; no contender will rise to take its place - if the MCU dies, the genre will die. Video game adaptations may be the new trend. It's too bad that the gaming community is exponentially more problematic and toxic than CBM fans ever could be. Your commitment to the Sakaar community is commendable. It's understandable to feel disheartened when the response is lackluster, especially when it concerns something as dear to you as Loki's character and the associated series. Engagement ebbs and flows, and this may just be a quieter season. Since MCU discussion and excitement have dried up, I've returned to reading classic comic book stories. I'm working through the Claremont / Romita Jr. run on the X-Men, which is fantastic. The movies don't even come close. My advice, if you're looking to mainline, skip the Hollywood BS train and go straight to the source. Out of curiosity which channels were these? The ones that were for the mcu and then turned on it consequently
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Post by AQUA RAPTOR! on Nov 7, 2023 17:36:46 GMT 1
Lord Death Man, Is it really that hard to imagine that people have changed their tune on the MCU because Phase 4 MCU has not been satisfactory? It's hard to be enthusiastic when the franchise's creative team are literally handed great stories on a silver platter and then seem to almost intentionally refuse to deliver on what would be satisfying story developments and conclusions for the sake of agenda-pushing.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Nov 7, 2023 18:05:58 GMT 1
Lord Death Man , Is it really that hard to imagine that people have changed their tune on the MCU because Phase 4 MCU has not been satisfactory? It's hard to be enthusiastic when the franchise's creative team are literally handed great stories on a silver platter and then seem to almost intentionally refuse to deliver on what would be satisfying story developments and conclusions for the sake of agenda-pushing. To be quite honest with you, it is hard for me to imagine. We had three phases of nearly unimpeachable CBM greatness, one mixed phase, and one currently trending downward (and still in progress). I do not see a justification for completely jumping ship. I'm not saying that no one can or should be negative on the MCU. If you're dissatisfied with the product, you should certainly say something about it. I'm focusing on the positive and helping to find ways to stem the tide of the downturn in the fandom. I believe that the MCU can and will return to a baseline high-quality product, if not to the astonishing heights of their heyday.
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Post by AQUA RAPTOR! on Nov 7, 2023 18:21:04 GMT 1
Lord Death Man , Is it really that hard to imagine that people have changed their tune on the MCU because Phase 4 MCU has not been satisfactory? It's hard to be enthusiastic when the franchise's creative team are literally handed great stories on a silver platter and then seem to almost intentionally refuse to deliver on what would be satisfying story developments and conclusions for the sake of agenda-pushing. To be quite honest with you, it is hard for me to imagine. We had three phases of nearly unimpeachable CBM greatness, one mixed phase, and one currently trending downward (and still in progress). I do not see a justification for completely jumping ship. I'm not saying that no one can or should be negative on the MCU. If you're dissatisfied with the product, you should certainly say something about it. I'm focusing on the positive and helping to find ways to stem the tide of the downturn in the fandom. I believe that the MCU can and will return to a baseline high-quality product, if not to the astonishing heights of their heyday. The House of Mouse, the MCU's owner, is currently destroying itself with bad decisions, corruption, and a stream of bad movies born of bad, desperate decisions, and much of that is reflected in current MCU. There comes a point when even hopeful optimism reaches its limits.
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Post by LokisMom on Nov 7, 2023 18:57:43 GMT 1
I’m talking about the entire menu, though I tend to associate Sakaar with Marvel because of the name. My bad. I’ve been a member sin ce Oct 2021 and produced about 45 threads and 22 pages of response posts, I daresay 95% of it MCU related. Is that good or bad? I do come here almost everyday to see if there is an active conversation and lately it’s been slim pickins. So why bother starting something, if it gets a cold shoulder. I know compared to my political IMDb’s output, that’s a drop. Since we can’t do controversial topics that might offend, that limits a lot of philosophical topics I‘d like to address…and I do try to squeeze it on the podcast when I can. However, I’m thinking in terms of the Podcast of Champions, which I joined not long after joining this board. GM plugs it on each podcast and I’d like to see our audience grow, but if any new viewers come looking for a new group of online friends to share Marvel or the other properties, they may feel ignored. I’m sorta hurt Loki S2 hasn’t generated more talk. That character is the sole reason I became hooked on the MCU about three years ago and started getting into fan boards and podcasting. And I didn’t really like Tom Hiddleston until then because I associated him as one of Taylor Swift’s jilted boyfriends. By all accounts, this show is sterling success, we get enthusiastic on podcast, even in the after talk, then nothing the next day. We used to at least have a fun with plot theories. Sigh… The anti-fandom has leeched most of the enjoyment from what was once a thriving and unified fandom. It's a shame that the MCU has been overshadowed by critical dissection. I see dozens of YouTubers on the MCU hate train after being completely mesmerized by the movies for the past decade and a half. Some built their channels around the brand and now have far fewer views and subs. They're literally destroying their own livelihood in some cases. The end of the MCU will mark the end of the CBM genre. The MCU was the gold standard; no contender will rise to take its place - if the MCU dies, the genre will die. Video game adaptations may be the new trend. It's too bad that the gaming community is exponentially more problematic and toxic than CBM fans ever could be. Your commitment to the Sakaar community is commendable. It's understandable to feel disheartened when the response is lackluster, especially when it concerns something as dear to you as Loki's character and the associated series. Engagement ebbs and flows, and this may just be a quieter season. Since MCU discussion and excitement have dried up, I've returned to reading classic comic book stories. I'm working through the Claremont / Romita Jr. run on the X-Men, which is fantastic. The movies don't even come close. My advice, if you're looking to mainline, skip the Hollywood BS train and go straight to the source. Not to mention, I want it for Grandmaster. You are not one to encourage people. I hope your predictions for the MCU and the video games fail.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Nov 7, 2023 19:06:13 GMT 1
To be quite honest with you, it is hard for me to imagine. We had three phases of nearly unimpeachable CBM greatness, one mixed phase, and one currently trending downward (and still in progress). I do not see a justification for completely jumping ship. I'm not saying that no one can or should be negative on the MCU. If you're dissatisfied with the product, you should certainly say something about it. I'm focusing on the positive and helping to find ways to stem the tide of the downturn in the fandom. I believe that the MCU can and will return to a baseline high-quality product, if not to the astonishing heights of their heyday. The House of Mouse, the MCU's owner, is currently destroying itself with bad decisions, corruption, and a stream of bad movies born of bad, desperate decisions, and much of that is reflected in current MCU. There comes a point when even hopeful optimism reaches its limits. If that's how you feel, then what more is there to say, really?
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Post by Lord Death Man on Nov 7, 2023 19:11:38 GMT 1
Sigh… The anti-fandom has leeched most of the enjoyment from what was once a thriving and unified fandom. It's a shame that the MCU has been overshadowed by critical dissection. I see dozens of YouTubers on the MCU hate train after being completely mesmerized by the movies for the past decade and a half. Some built their channels around the brand and now have far fewer views and subs. They're literally destroying their own livelihood in some cases. The end of the MCU will mark the end of the CBM genre. The MCU was the gold standard; no contender will rise to take its place - if the MCU dies, the genre will die. Video game adaptations may be the new trend. It's too bad that the gaming community is exponentially more problematic and toxic than CBM fans ever could be. Your commitment to the Sakaar community is commendable. It's understandable to feel disheartened when the response is lackluster, especially when it concerns something as dear to you as Loki's character and the associated series. Engagement ebbs and flows, and this may just be a quieter season. Since MCU discussion and excitement have dried up, I've returned to reading classic comic book stories. I'm working through the Claremont / Romita Jr. run on the X-Men, which is fantastic. The movies don't even come close. My advice, if you're looking to mainline, skip the Hollywood BS train and go straight to the source. Not to mention, I want it for Grandmaster. You are not one to encourage people. I hope your predictions for the MCU and the video games fail. I don't have any predictions for the MCU. Unfortunately, the only way to get people interested in a discussion about that topic is to make dire predictions. You really shouldn't worry about it or take any of it too seriously. Have a cookie…
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Post by Indiana Jones on Nov 7, 2023 19:13:52 GMT 1
It will pick up once more movies come out. All the strikes haven't helped matters either.
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Post by AQUA RAPTOR! on Nov 7, 2023 20:49:43 GMT 1
The House of Mouse, the MCU's owner, is currently destroying itself with bad decisions, corruption, and a stream of bad movies born of bad, desperate decisions, and much of that is reflected in current MCU. There comes a point when even hopeful optimism reaches its limits. If that's how you feel, then what more is there to say, really? I mostly spoke up because I think you're not giving current MCU detractors their dues. Former fans haven't begun to criticize the series for no reason. It's born of a disappointment that quality control and solid storytelling have taken backseat to politics. When a wide demographic of fans begins to feel like they're becoming the target of ideological shaming by shows like Falcon and the Winter Soldier, She-Hulk, and even Secret Invasion, it becomes harder to forgive and overlook the flaws. And again, the Rhody reveal in Secret Invasion is so problematic and damaging from a storytelling perspective that its ripples reach into both the past and future of the series. All of Rhody's appearances between 2016-now are meaningless and now audience members who don't have Disney+ will have to play catchup to a plot twist on a show they couldn't watch when Armor Wars comes out. And will probably feel equally cheated as people currently in the discourse. Heck, the plot reveal will probably turn many people not in the online discourse away from even watching Armor Wars when they catch wind of it. I don't think unquestioningly continuing to support a series just because it was good before is healthy, either, when the creative practices have become toxic.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Nov 7, 2023 23:34:27 GMT 1
If that's how you feel, then what more is there to say, really? I mostly spoke up because I think you're not giving current MCU detractors their dues. Former fans haven't begun to criticize the series for no reason. It's born of a disappointment that quality control and solid storytelling have taken backseat to politics. When a wide demographic of fans begins to feel like they're becoming the target of ideological shaming by shows like Falcon and the Winter Soldier, She-Hulk, and even Secret Invasion, it becomes harder to forgive and overlook the flaws. And again, the Rhody reveal in Secret Invasion is so problematic and damaging from a storytelling perspective that its ripples reach into both the past and future of the series. All of Rhody's appearances between 2016-now are meaningless and now audience members who don't have Disney+ will have to play catchup to a plot twist on a show they couldn't watch when Armor Wars comes out. And will probably feel equally cheated as people currently in the discourse. Heck, the plot reveal will probably turn many people not in the online discourse away from even watching Armor Wars when they catch wind of it. I don't think unquestioningly continuing to support a series just because it was good before is healthy, either, when the creative practices have become toxic. I recognize that my previous statements might have come across as dismissive to some, and for that, I apologize. The intention was never to diminish anyone's concerns but to express a difficulty in engaging with points I fundamentally disagree with. Many criticisms you've levied against the MCU are valid, but with all due respect, they are also repetitive to the point of tedium and are often expressed with a sharpness that can make discourse more draining than it needs to be. While I understand that the nature of debate involves revisiting specific points, there comes a time when we have to ask ourselves what merit there is in continuous negative engagement, especially when it seems to provide little in the way of resolution or progress. I've said this before, but I guess I'll have to repeat it: the propensity of some fans to dwell extensively and exclusively on aspects of the MCU they find unsatisfactory often baffles me. If one's dissatisfaction runs so deep, persisting with something that no longer brings joy seems counterproductive. Surely, there is a point where it is healthier, and perhaps more satisfying, to seek out and engage with media that aligns better with one's tastes, values, and expectations. On a personal note, I've never been one to seek out or require a group's validation when it comes to my opinions, thoughts, or beliefs. Nor am I particularly drawn to the political contexts or economic impacts of media franchises on fandom. My interest lies primarily in the characters and storytelling itself and the enjoyment it can bring rather than looking for my values to be reflected or endorsed by what I watch. I REFUSE to kowtow to those voices who would reduce all of human endeavor and experience down to simple politics. I have read and comprehended your concerns about the quality and narrative integrity of the MCU. It's an understandable frustration when one feels that storytelling is compromised by external agendas, or when changes in a narrative feel more like retcons that require additional subscriptions to follow. It's clear that for some fans, the MCU's direction feels alienating, and it's a legitimate position to question whether continued support is justified when the creative direction appears to conflict with personal values or expectations for quality. That said, while I wouldn't categorize Marvel, its characters, scenarios, and fictional events as wholly leftist - the company has always had what I would term - progressive leanings. While it's understandable to be frustrated by this tendency if you adhere to an opposing worldview, it's also disingenuous to be overly indignant about them advancing that value system in live-action media. The truth is that progressive values are not new or unique in the history of Marvel as a brand.
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Post by LokisMom on Nov 7, 2023 23:38:04 GMT 1
The House of Mouse, the MCU's owner, is currently destroying itself with bad decisions, corruption, and a stream of bad movies born of bad, desperate decisions, and much of that is reflected in current MCU. There comes a point when even hopeful optimism reaches its limits. If that's how you feel, then what more is there to say, really? I’m being sardonic, LDM. You used to say a lot. I really enjoyed the things you did on Moon Knight podcasts. It was fun even if the drama was cheesy. We‘ve gotten too serious.
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Post by LokisMom on Nov 7, 2023 23:54:17 GMT 1
If that's how you feel, then what more is there to say, really? I mostly spoke up because I think you're not giving current MCU detractors their dues. Former fans haven't begun to criticize the series for no reason. It's born of a disappointment that quality control and solid storytelling have taken backseat to politics. When a wide demographic of fans begins to feel like they're becoming the target of ideological shaming by shows like Falcon and the Winter Soldier, She-Hulk, and even Secret Invasion, it becomes harder to forgive and overlook the flaws. And again, the Rhody reveal in Secret Invasion is so problematic and damaging from a storytelling perspective that its ripples reach into both the past and future of the series. All of Rhody's appearances between 2016-now are meaningless and now audience members who don't have Disney+ will have to play catchup to a plot twist on a show they couldn't watch when Armor Wars comes out. And will probably feel equally cheated as people currently in the discourse. Heck, the plot reveal will probably turn many people not in the online discourse away from even watching Armor Wars when they catch wind of it. I don't think unquestioningly continuing to support a series just because it was good before is healthy, either, when the creative practices have become toxic. I think that’s on those fans though. It shouldn’t be Marvel’s duty to pander to a small subset of politically disgruntled, old-fashioned fans. I get their possessiveness, because it was geared to their tastes for a long time, but no one gives to us Marvel, we pay for it. My money is the same as any fan’s. That said, if it’s too much to accept, then yeah, leave it go. But I’m not bothered by the virtue whatever. Bad scripts, producing directing, yes. So, I agree they screwed Rhody, Nick Fury, and then some…but SI is one their most right wingy series, when you think about it. That show stinks on the Moon. As for Loki, if anyone thinks it’s too left wing…then dang.
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Post by LokisMom on Nov 8, 2023 0:10:01 GMT 1
I mostly spoke up because I think you're not giving current MCU detractors their dues. Former fans haven't begun to criticize the series for no reason. It's born of a disappointment that quality control and solid storytelling have taken backseat to politics. When a wide demographic of fans begins to feel like they're becoming the target of ideological shaming by shows like Falcon and the Winter Soldier, She-Hulk, and even Secret Invasion, it becomes harder to forgive and overlook the flaws. And again, the Rhody reveal in Secret Invasion is so problematic and damaging from a storytelling perspective that its ripples reach into both the past and future of the series. All of Rhody's appearances between 2016-now are meaningless and now audience members who don't have Disney+ will have to play catchup to a plot twist on a show they couldn't watch when Armor Wars comes out. And will probably feel equally cheated as people currently in the discourse. Heck, the plot reveal will probably turn many people not in the online discourse away from even watching Armor Wars when they catch wind of it. I don't think unquestioningly continuing to support a series just because it was good before is healthy, either, when the creative practices have become toxic. I recognize that my previous statements might have come across as dismissive to some, and for that, I apologize. The intention was never to diminish anyone's concerns but to express a difficulty in engaging with points I fundamentally disagree with. Many criticisms you've levied against the MCU are valid, but with all due respect, they are also repetitive to the point of tedium and are often expressed with a sharpness that can make discourse more draining than it needs to be. While I understand that the nature of debate involves revisiting specific points, there comes a time when we have to ask ourselves what merit there is in continuous negative engagement, especially when it seems to provide little in the way of resolution or progress. I've said this before, but I guess I'll have to repeat it: the propensity of some fans to dwell extensively and exclusively on aspects of the MCU they find unsatisfactory often baffles me. If one's dissatisfaction runs so deep, persisting with something that no longer brings joy seems counterproductive. Surely, there is a point where it is healthier, and perhaps more satisfying, to seek out and engage with media that aligns better with one's tastes, values, and expectations. On a personal note, I've never been one to seek out or require a group's validation when it comes to my opinions, thoughts, or beliefs. Nor am I particularly drawn to the political contexts or economic impacts of media franchises on fandom. My interest lies primarily in the characters and storytelling itself and the enjoyment it can bring rather than looking for my values to be reflected or endorsed by what I watch. I REFUSE to kowtow to those voices who would reduce all of human endeavor and experience down to simple politics.I have read and comprehended your concerns about the quality and narrative integrity of the MCU. It's an understandable frustration when one feels that storytelling is compromised by external agendas, or when changes in a narrative feel more like retcons that require additional subscriptions to follow. It's clear that for some fans, the MCU's direction feels alienating, and it's a legitimate position to question whether continued support is justified when the creative direction appears to conflict with personal values or expectations for quality. That said, while I wouldn't categorize Marvel, its characters, scenarios, and fictional events as wholly leftist - the company has always had what I would term - progressive leanings. While it's understandable to be frustrated by this tendency if you adhere to an opposing worldview, it's also disingenuous to be overly indignant about them advancing that value system in live-action media. The truth is that progressive values are not new or unique in the history of Marvel as a brand. I can’t agree more, yet that’s what it often comes down to. I would like to talk, not politics, but a more philosophical, literary, or cinema bent to what Marvel is attempting, in spite of Disney, and you know, LDM, I’m no post-Walt Disney fan. But it is more than the some of its parts we begrudgingly give it credit for. I think it does uplift and inspire. Marty Scorsese is wrong. Hurmph!
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Post by LokisMom on Nov 8, 2023 0:11:21 GMT 1
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Post by Merv on Nov 8, 2023 0:16:58 GMT 1
Nobody has even liked my Xmen family tree explanation.
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Post by AQUA RAPTOR! on Nov 8, 2023 1:39:14 GMT 1
I mostly spoke up because I think you're not giving current MCU detractors their dues. Former fans haven't begun to criticize the series for no reason. It's born of a disappointment that quality control and solid storytelling have taken backseat to politics. When a wide demographic of fans begins to feel like they're becoming the target of ideological shaming by shows like Falcon and the Winter Soldier, She-Hulk, and even Secret Invasion, it becomes harder to forgive and overlook the flaws. And again, the Rhody reveal in Secret Invasion is so problematic and damaging from a storytelling perspective that its ripples reach into both the past and future of the series. All of Rhody's appearances between 2016-now are meaningless and now audience members who don't have Disney+ will have to play catchup to a plot twist on a show they couldn't watch when Armor Wars comes out. And will probably feel equally cheated as people currently in the discourse. Heck, the plot reveal will probably turn many people not in the online discourse away from even watching Armor Wars when they catch wind of it. I don't think unquestioningly continuing to support a series just because it was good before is healthy, either, when the creative practices have become toxic. I recognize that my previous statements might have come across as dismissive to some, and for that, I apologize. The intention was never to diminish anyone's concerns but to express a difficulty in engaging with points I fundamentally disagree with. Many criticisms you've levied against the MCU are valid, but with all due respect, they are also repetitive to the point of tedium and are often expressed with a sharpness that can make discourse more draining than it needs to be. While I understand that the nature of debate involves revisiting specific points, there comes a time when we have to ask ourselves what merit there is in continuous negative engagement, especially when it seems to provide little in the way of resolution or progress. I brought it up again because it is proving to be a continuing problem they will not back down on. People should not be targeted or called out for simply not aligning with the Democratic party, especially by entertainment their money is paying for, created by insulated out-of-touch Hollywood folk who have never known a real day's hard work. Because mainstream media like this can color how people view people of other political alignments if it not challenged. Propaganda is a thing that exists and Disney, and by extension, all of their outlets, have targeted a broad range of people simply because they don't lean Left for demonization. That's not appropriate, or acceptable behavior. It's more than just not having my own values reflected. It's the fact that my values are treated as an evil other by default in the MCU, from Phase 4-onward. I don't expect my values to be reflected in Hollywood productions, but I do ask not be demonized at the very least. If you're running a business, or selling a product, which Marvel Studios is, it's not a good idea to alienate customers. Besides, Marvel never had a problem with wanting to draw a wide crowd from sides of the aisle before. I don't care that the Marvel brand does not align with my politics. What I care about is that the people currently in charge of Marvel Studios have began demonizing large demographics of viewers for simply not agreeing with THEIR political beliefs. Given how they act on Twitter, always responding to criticism with "LOL, you're a Right Wing bigot," the creative teams over at Marvel Studios are creating a "with us or against us" atmosphere.
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Post by AQUA RAPTOR! on Nov 8, 2023 1:49:54 GMT 1
I mostly spoke up because I think you're not giving current MCU detractors their dues. Former fans haven't begun to criticize the series for no reason. It's born of a disappointment that quality control and solid storytelling have taken backseat to politics. When a wide demographic of fans begins to feel like they're becoming the target of ideological shaming by shows like Falcon and the Winter Soldier, She-Hulk, and even Secret Invasion, it becomes harder to forgive and overlook the flaws. And again, the Rhody reveal in Secret Invasion is so problematic and damaging from a storytelling perspective that its ripples reach into both the past and future of the series. All of Rhody's appearances between 2016-now are meaningless and now audience members who don't have Disney+ will have to play catchup to a plot twist on a show they couldn't watch when Armor Wars comes out. And will probably feel equally cheated as people currently in the discourse. Heck, the plot reveal will probably turn many people not in the online discourse away from even watching Armor Wars when they catch wind of it. I don't think unquestioningly continuing to support a series just because it was good before is healthy, either, when the creative practices have become toxic. I think that’s on those fans though. It shouldn’t be Marvel’s duty to pander to a small subset of politically disgruntled, old-fashioned fans. I get their possessiveness, because it was geared to their tastes for a long time, but no one gives to us Marvel, we pay for it. My money is the same as any fan’s. That said, if it’s too much to accept, then yeah, leave it go. But I’m not bothered by the virtue whatever. Bad scripts, producing directing, yes. So, I agree they screwed Rhody, Nick Fury, and then some…but SI is one their most right wingy series, when you think about it. That show stinks on the Moon. As for Loki, if anyone thinks it’s too left wing…then dang. I don't think Marvel Studios is making a distinction between insane Alt Right nutters and regular Right-leaning people, though. I'm not asking to be pandered to. I'm asking not to be targeted for demonization for having the audacity of not being Left leaning. That is not much to ask for, whatsoever. If Marvel Studios specifically wants to cut portions of the population out of their viewership, that's their call. They'll lose, and are losing, ten/hundreds of millions for alienating huge portions of their audience, but they can do that. During Phases 1-3, they told stories that could appeal to anyone and everything, with the intention of reaching a wide audience made of people of all walks of life. They need to go back to that if they want to survive. I'm including the way Disney and a lot of folk over at Marvel Studios act on Twitter, too, in this. Whenever a sizable portion of the fanbase calls foul on anything they do, they always turn to the ol' "LOL the people who don't like it are just Right-wing bigots!" That right there tells me that they're not just targeting Alt Right wingers in stuff like Falcon and the Winter Soldier. The narrative they're pushing is "for us or against us". And my money is also the same as any fan's. I'm also a paying customer. Therefore, my voice is still valid, too.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Nov 8, 2023 2:40:16 GMT 1
I recognize that my previous statements might have come across as dismissive to some, and for that, I apologize. The intention was never to diminish anyone's concerns but to express a difficulty in engaging with points I fundamentally disagree with. Many criticisms you've levied against the MCU are valid, but with all due respect, they are also repetitive to the point of tedium and are often expressed with a sharpness that can make discourse more draining than it needs to be. While I understand that the nature of debate involves revisiting specific points, there comes a time when we have to ask ourselves what merit there is in continuous negative engagement, especially when it seems to provide little in the way of resolution or progress. I brought it up again because it is proving to be a continuing problem they will back down on. People should not be targeted or called out for simply not aligning with the Democratic party, especially by entertainment their money is paying for created by insulated, out-of-touch Hollywood folk who have never known a real day's hard work. Because mainstream media like this can color how people view people of other political alignments if it not challenged. Propaganda is a thing that exists and Disney, and by extension, all of their outlets, have targeted a broad range of people simply becuas they don't lean Left. That's not appropriate, or acceptable behavior. If you're running a business, or selling a product, which Marvel Studios is, it's not a good idea to alienate customers. I don't care that the Marvel brand does not align with my politics. What I care about is that the people currently in charge of Marvel Studios have began demonizing large demographics of viewers for simply not agreeing with THEIR political beliefs. So you are saying that Marvel and Disney are persecuting you, and you want justice or something along those lines? I don't understand, and sadly, I've reached the limits of my intellectual curiosity and reasoning powers in trying to do so. From your notes, I gather that you truthfully believe that fictional, fantasy-based TV shows and movies are somehow doing irreparable harm to you and others who think as you do. In that case, I have no credible response other than to wish you well in your efforts to change the status quo. In taking this position, you become less of a fan and more of an activist. Your grievances are political, and your perception of what is quality is intrinsically tied to that. I have the utmost respect for those who support their politics with peaceful protests and activism. Unfortunately, I'm not here to engage on that level. I'm here strictly for the fandom, and your activism is stepping on my fandom's throat. Regarding your ideas concerning "alienating customers," can we please put this strawman to bed? It's another repetitious argument that is self-evident and doesn't add value to the discussion. If you owned a business and deliberately ran it into the ground, that wouldn't be a good idea, but no one here (at least in America) would begrudge your right to do it. I don't think Disney is too big to fail, and we are not discussing a corporation in a communist or socialist country; Disney can and does operate its enterprises as it sees fit.
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Post by AQUA RAPTOR! on Nov 8, 2023 2:52:01 GMT 1
I brought it up again because it is proving to be a continuing problem they will back down on. People should not be targeted or called out for simply not aligning with the Democratic party, especially by entertainment their money is paying for created by insulated, out-of-touch Hollywood folk who have never known a real day's hard work. Because mainstream media like this can color how people view people of other political alignments if it not challenged. Propaganda is a thing that exists and Disney, and by extension, all of their outlets, have targeted a broad range of people simply becuas they don't lean Left. That's not appropriate, or acceptable behavior. If you're running a business, or selling a product, which Marvel Studios is, it's not a good idea to alienate customers. I don't care that the Marvel brand does not align with my politics. What I care about is that the people currently in charge of Marvel Studios have began demonizing large demographics of viewers for simply not agreeing with THEIR political beliefs. So you are saying that Marvel and Disney are persecuting you, and you want justice or something along those lines? I don't understand, and sadly, I've reached the limits of my intellectual curiosity and reasoning powers in trying to do so. From your notes, I gather that you truthfully believe that fictional, fantasy-based TV shows and movies are somehow doing irreparable harm to you and others who think as you do. In that case, I have no credible response other than to wish you well in your efforts to change the status quo. In taking this position, you become less of a fan and more of an activist. Your grievances are political, and your perception of what is quality is intrinsically tied to that. I have the utmost respect for those who support their politics with peaceful protests and activism. Unfortunately, I'm not here to engage on that level. I'm here strictly for the fandom, and your activism is stepping on my fandom's throat. Regarding your ideas concerning "alienating customers," can we please put this strawman to bed? It's another repetitious argument that is self-evident and doesn't add value to the discussion. If you owned a business and deliberately ran it into the ground, that wouldn't be a good idea, but no one here (at least in America) would begrudge your right to do it. I don't think Disney is too big to fail, and we are not discussing a corporation in a communist or socialist country; Disney can and does operate its enterprises as it sees fit. Look at how they act on Twitter whenever someone criticizes their work. "LOL, you're just a Right Wing bigot!" Then they go on and on about representation and Patriarchy instead of addressing the comments about the narrative issues of their work and use their social justice activism as a cover against criticism. They're actively cultivating a "with us or against us" environment. Those same people are the ones making the content. It is impossible to look at their real-life, unfiltered comments and then not see that attitude reflected in their work. For someone with a lot of familiarity with storytelling, you seem woefully unaware of how popular media can affect the way people think. Disney's activism is stepping on your fandom's throat. Nobody makes a show like Falcon and the Winter Soldier the way they did without being on an ideological crusade. And no, I'm not an activist. I'm asking to be left out of the activism. I don't expect my values to be reflected in Hollywood productions, but I do expect not to be demonized them, too. That's all. No, we can't put this argument to bed, because it is a continuing problem. Well, Disney is going to run itself into the ground and potentially take the Marvel brand with it if they don't change course.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Nov 8, 2023 3:28:15 GMT 1
So you are saying that Marvel and Disney are persecuting you, and you want justice or something along those lines? I don't understand, and sadly, I've reached the limits of my intellectual curiosity and reasoning powers in trying to do so. From your notes, I gather that you truthfully believe that fictional, fantasy-based TV shows and movies are somehow doing irreparable harm to you and others who think as you do. In that case, I have no credible response other than to wish you well in your efforts to change the status quo. In taking this position, you become less of a fan and more of an activist. Your grievances are political, and your perception of what is quality is intrinsically tied to that. I have the utmost respect for those who support their politics with peaceful protests and activism. Unfortunately, I'm not here to engage on that level. I'm here strictly for the fandom, and your activism is stepping on my fandom's throat. Regarding your ideas concerning "alienating customers," can we please put this strawman to bed? It's another repetitious argument that is self-evident and doesn't add value to the discussion. If you owned a business and deliberately ran it into the ground, that wouldn't be a good idea, but no one here (at least in America) would begrudge your right to do it. I don't think Disney is too big to fail, and we are not discussing a corporation in a communist or socialist country; Disney can and does operate its enterprises as it sees fit. Look at how they act on Twitter whenever someone criticizes their work. "LOL, you're just a Right Wing bigot!" Then they go on and on about representation and Patriarchy instead of addressing the comments about the narrative issues of their work and use their social justice activism as a cover against criticism. They're actively cultivating a "with us or against us" environment. Those same people are the ones making the content. It is impossible to look at their real-life, unfiltered comments and then not see that attitude reflected in their work. For someone with a lot of familiarity with storytelling, you seem woefully unaware of how popular media can affect the way people think. Disney's activism is stepping on your fandom's throat. Nobody makes a show like Falcon and the Winter Soldier the way they did without being on an ideological crusade. And no, I'm not an activist. I'm asking to be left out of the activism. I don't expect my values to be reflected in Hollywood productions, but I do expect not to be demonized them, too. That's all. No, we can't put this argument to bed, because it is a continuing problem. Well, Disney is going to run itself into the ground and potentially take the Marvel brand with it if they don't change course. This post explains a lot to me, thank you. I don't often extend pity to strangers on the internet. Still, no matter how hard I try, I cannot imagine a life rooted in perpetual grievance, the deification of the negative and the endless pursuit of conflict. You are not free. Go with God, Sir.
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Post by AQUA RAPTOR! on Nov 8, 2023 3:35:46 GMT 1
Look at how they act on Twitter whenever someone criticizes their work. "LOL, you're just a Right Wing bigot!" Then they go on and on about representation and Patriarchy instead of addressing the comments about the narrative issues of their work and use their social justice activism as a cover against criticism. They're actively cultivating a "with us or against us" environment. Those same people are the ones making the content. It is impossible to look at their real-life, unfiltered comments and then not see that attitude reflected in their work. For someone with a lot of familiarity with storytelling, you seem woefully unaware of how popular media can affect the way people think. Disney's activism is stepping on your fandom's throat. Nobody makes a show like Falcon and the Winter Soldier the way they did without being on an ideological crusade. And no, I'm not an activist. I'm asking to be left out of the activism. I don't expect my values to be reflected in Hollywood productions, but I do expect not to be demonized them, too. That's all. No, we can't put this argument to bed, because it is a continuing problem. Well, Disney is going to run itself into the ground and potentially take the Marvel brand with it if they don't change course. This post explains a lot to me, thank you. I don't often extend pity to strangers on the internet. Still, no matter how hard I try, I cannot imagine a life rooted in perpetual grievance, the deification of the negative and the endless pursuit of conflict. You are not free. Go with God, Sir. You should look closer to home for the person who needs pity, sir. Your willing and woeful blindness to the dangerous activism that has invaded your favorite franchise is awe-inspiring.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Nov 8, 2023 3:39:14 GMT 1
This post explains a lot to me, thank you. I don't often extend pity to strangers on the internet. Still, no matter how hard I try, I cannot imagine a life rooted in perpetual grievance, the deification of the negative and the endless pursuit of conflict. You are not free. Go with God, Sir. You should look closer to home for the person who needs pity, sir. Your willing and woeful blindness to the dangerous activism that has invaded your favorite franchise is awe-inspiring. Enough. We've tasted the bread, and we disagree. Let's part ways without malice; I cannot allow my senses to be further deranged by this conversation. May you and yours prosper, and I hope you get everything you're looking for in this life. No harm and no foul.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Nov 8, 2023 7:40:04 GMT 1
Nobody has even liked my Xmen family tree explanation. You would think I would have remembered that… Hell, give it a bump.
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Post by LokisMom on Nov 8, 2023 14:46:08 GMT 1
I think that’s on those fans though. It shouldn’t be Marvel’s duty to pander to a small subset of politically disgruntled, old-fashioned fans. I get their possessiveness, because it was geared to their tastes for a long time, but no one gives to us Marvel, we pay for it. My money is the same as any fan’s. That said, if it’s too much to accept, then yeah, leave it go. But I’m not bothered by the virtue whatever. Bad scripts, producing directing, yes. So, I agree they screwed Rhody, Nick Fury, and then some…but SI is one their most right wingy series, when you think about it. That show stinks on the Moon. As for Loki, if anyone thinks it’s too left wing…then dang. I don't think Marvel Studios is making a distinction between insane Alt Right nutters and regular Right-leaning people, though. I'm not asking to be pandered to. I'm asking not to be targeted for demonization for having the audacity of not being Left leaning. That is not much to ask for, whatsoever. If Marvel Studios specifically wants to cut portions of the population out of their viewership, that's their call. They'll lose, and are losing, ten/hundreds of millions for alienating huge portions of their audience, but they can do that. During Phases 1-3, they told stories that could appeal to anyone and everything, with the intention of reaching a wide audience made of people of all walks of life. They need to go back to that if they want to survive. I'm including the way Disney and a lot of folk over at Marvel Studios act on Twitter, too, in this. Whenever a sizable portion of the fanbase calls foul on anything they do, they always turn to the ol' "LOL the people who don't like it are just Right-wing bigots!" That right there tells me that they're not just targeting Alt Right wingers in stuff like Falcon and the Winter Soldier. The narrative they're pushing is "for us or against us". And my money is also the same as any fan's. I'm also a paying customer. Therefore, my voice is still valid, too. Absolutely, your voice is valid, but so is mine. Yet, I must walk on pies to not offend. As far I’ve seen, Marvel has never “demonized” Right Wingers. If you can give an example, maybe I can understand what you referring to. Demonize is a very strong word and demonizing people is not what I want to do. What any other politically motivated fans may have said online or in press, that’s on them, not on me and not on Marvel. God knows I don’t want talk politics with Right Wingers inside here, whether they are “insane Alt Right nutters and regular Right-leaning people,” but not every subject is political and not every subject has to be “canon.” During Phases 1-3, they told stories that could appeal to anyone and everything, with the intention of reaching a wide audience made of people of all walks of life. In what ways does Phase Four not do the same as 1-3 in reaching a wide audience, in other words, who are they not reaching in Phase 4. What specifically in any of the Phase 4 narratives made you feel personally demonize?
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Post by LokisMom on Nov 8, 2023 14:55:11 GMT 1
Thank you, guys. Now we’re talking. I’ll take this as Lokismom’s birthday present. (Nov 13).
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