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Post by ArArArchStanton on Sept 1, 2020 20:49:41 GMT 1
I am struggling deeply with how to even write this, what to lead with, what to focus on. I've reread it so many times. I know, we all know, Chadwick means far more than any one role, and far more than what any of us want regarding a film. So this isn't about nerd euphoria, it's about Chadwick's legacy and what he means to all of us.
So I 100% get we all wanted to wait for this topic, and I completely wanted to. But there's a bit of a phenomenon building that I feel is unfair and needs to be addressed now before it becomes the dominant narrative. It's regarding the subject of recasting.
I've encountered a lot of people who vibrantly understand what I'm about to say regarding recasting being a truly positive option, but there is an idea that recasting = being disrespectful that people seem to be open to talk about, and for me it's only fair to also be able to talk about the benefits of recasting as well. After thinking through all the possible questions about the future, I genuinely believe recasting is actually the most respectful option, and I want to convince you.
So I've thought about a lot of different ideas
1. What would Chadwick want? Unless he told somebody we'll likely never know, but I have to believe he would want this character to endure. He would want it to be bigger than himself because he knows it's about the community 2. The community he most represents deserve to keep this character instead of taking it away from the them. 3. Allowing a new young up and coming black actor take that mantle seems to be the best way to honor it and Chadwick, to let that person become that symbol and extend that legacy 4. And there are other options, Shuri and M'Baku are there to take the mantle of course, but they are going to be there in important roles anyway, so recasting maintains an important role 5. And if we don't recast now, when can we? in 10 years? in 20? When does it become ok? I just can't accept that the best way to honor Chadwick is to deny the community he was a hero to. 6. We've recast Dumbledore. We've recast Joker. We've recast the Crow. We even had CGI composites of Akasha and Proximo to finish out films they weren't even able to complete. The most honorable thing to do, is to let his legacy grow through others. To let him be the first in a long line of T'Challas. It is honorable to be the new Superman even though Reeve has passed. It is honorable to be the new Batman even though West has passed. And it will be honorable to be the new T'Challa in Chadwick's memory. 7. Storyline is hardly important but it's worth mentioning that not recasting means they'll have to include some convoluted answer as to why he's not there. Or cancel the series. You'll end up watching them feeling that he's missing, and knowing that certain character's actions were supposed to be his. And there's just no reason to. He can be there. He can fulfill his story. 8. And his character just got started. He's supposed to be a lead figure. Letting a new actor be that lead figure and fulfill that promise in this series is amazingly powerful.
Overall, after thinking through everything, I am convinced that everybody wins with a recast; the community, the cast, the fans, and Chadwick's legacy, and I see no benefit not to.
Recasting = honoring Chadwick's legacy, not forgetting it
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2020 0:35:41 GMT 1
Archie, I agree with you 100%.
A recast is the only way forward. I don't at all see it as disrespectful. Chadwick helped build this character into a worldwide icon. It absolutely should continue. Killing off T'Challa in canon is in horrible taste. And writing the character out is a disservice to everyone this character is important to, particularly black fans.
Passing the mantle to Shuri would be an utter disaster. Lupita Nyongo's character would be the only "good" option, and honestly, even that would lead to a flop. To be blunt, nobody wants to see that movie. And letting this franchise fall apart would be an utter shame.
As sad as it will be, they have to recast to keep this character and this franchise going strong. That is the best way to honor Chadwick, I think- to celebrate his work by continuing it, rather than letting it vanish, which would only serve to emphasize the great tragedy of his death. And he will always own the role, just like Christopher Reeves and Superman. No matter how long it lasts and who plays him in the future, we will always think of the original man who made it what it is. And the longer it goes, the greater Chadwick's legacy will be.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2020 1:44:22 GMT 1
Archie, I agree with you 100%. A recast is the only way forward. I don't at all see it as disrespectful. Chadwick helped build this character into a worldwide icon. It absolutely should continue. Killing off T'Challa in canon is in horrible taste. And writing the character out is a disservice to everyone this character is important to, particularly black fans. Passing the mantle to Shuri would be an utter disaster. Lupita Nyongo's character would be the only "good" option, and honestly, even that would lead to a flop. To be blunt, nobody wants to see that movie. And letting this franchise fall apart would be an utter shame. As sad as it will be, they have to recast to keep this character and this franchise going strong. That is the best way to honor Chadwick, I think- to celebrate his work by continuing it, rather than letting it vanish, which would only serve to emphasize the great tragedy of his death. And he will always own the role, just like Christopher Reeves and Superman. No matter how long it lasts and who plays him in the future, we will always think of the original man who made it what it is. And the longer it goes, the greater Chadwick's legacy will be. I'd stay off twitter when they recast him. That is going to be an ugly battlefield. Overall, I think I've come to agree that the role needs to be recast.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Sept 2, 2020 1:58:08 GMT 1
Archie, I agree with you 100%. A recast is the only way forward. I don't at all see it as disrespectful. Chadwick helped build this character into a worldwide icon. It absolutely should continue. Killing off T'Challa in canon is in horrible taste. And writing the character out is a disservice to everyone this character is important to, particularly black fans. Passing the mantle to Shuri would be an utter disaster. Lupita Nyongo's character would be the only "good" option, and honestly, even that would lead to a flop. To be blunt, nobody wants to see that movie. And letting this franchise fall apart would be an utter shame. As sad as it will be, they have to recast to keep this character and this franchise going strong. That is the best way to honor Chadwick, I think- to celebrate his work by continuing it, rather than letting it vanish, which would only serve to emphasize the great tragedy of his death. And he will always own the role, just like Christopher Reeves and Superman. No matter how long it lasts and who plays him in the future, we will always think of the original man who made it what it is. And the longer it goes, the greater Chadwick's legacy will be. Thank you and I’m glad you understand what I was going for there. I wanted to promote a positive image of recasting so that the idea that it’s somehow offensive doesn’t take root, because I genuinely think it’s super positive. I believe in it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2020 2:27:48 GMT 1
Archie, I agree with you 100%. A recast is the only way forward. I don't at all see it as disrespectful. Chadwick helped build this character into a worldwide icon. It absolutely should continue. Killing off T'Challa in canon is in horrible taste. And writing the character out is a disservice to everyone this character is important to, particularly black fans. Passing the mantle to Shuri would be an utter disaster. Lupita Nyongo's character would be the only "good" option, and honestly, even that would lead to a flop. To be blunt, nobody wants to see that movie. And letting this franchise fall apart would be an utter shame. As sad as it will be, they have to recast to keep this character and this franchise going strong. That is the best way to honor Chadwick, I think- to celebrate his work by continuing it, rather than letting it vanish, which would only serve to emphasize the great tragedy of his death. And he will always own the role, just like Christopher Reeves and Superman. No matter how long it lasts and who plays him in the future, we will always think of the original man who made it what it is. And the longer it goes, the greater Chadwick's legacy will be. Thank you and I’m glad you understand what I was going for there. I wanted to promote a positive image of recasting so that the idea that it’s somehow offensive doesn’t take root, because I genuinely think it’s super positive. I believe in it. I tend to believe that most people will agree with your points in time. Especially Marvel Studios. It's the only way forward. Of course, I wouldn't be surprised if the sequel doesn't come out for a while. 2022 is way too soon for a new actor. A delay is needed. Recasting should not be announced for several years. Eventually a new movie will be more of a celebration of this character and of Boseman rather than just a reminder of tragedy. Just as long as the next movie is a sequel and not a reboot.
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Post by equality72521 on Sept 2, 2020 2:58:53 GMT 1
Well said
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Post by Grandmaster on Sept 2, 2020 6:11:32 GMT 1
I agree the role should be recasted. And Marvel Studios will recast. In the end the first movie made 1.3 billion dollars. A sequel is probable to make around that figure as well. And in the end movie making is a business and there is not a company in the world that walks away from that kind of money.
I wouldnt have a problem with it btw. Its not the first time they would recast a role. Of course this time there is a dark side to it. It will be tough bit in the end everyone will accept it I hope.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Sept 2, 2020 13:06:15 GMT 1
I agree the role should be recasted. And Marvel Studios will recast. In the end the first movie made 1.3 billion dollars. A sequel is probable to make around that figure as well. And in the end movie making is a business and there is not a company in the world that walks away from that kind of money. I wouldnt have a problem with it btw. Its not the first time they would recast a role. Of course this time there is a dark side to it. It will be tough bit in the end everyone will accept it I hope. that last part is why I wrote this. There’s at least a handful of “never recasters” who are cornering the market by saying you’re not allowed to suggest recasting. And if they’re going to bring it up, I had to respond. I really didn’t want to
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2020 13:39:50 GMT 1
Sure it's sad that he died of cancer but the reality is this, people die everyday and the world doesnt stop nor should it as it would be impractical. Life goes on.
It should be up to Disney and Disney alone to decide how they are going to move forward. Unfortunately in this woke world, especially very woke America, Disney's decision might be taken hostage by current politics. There's no real rush to do anything about it for now. Covid delays and I think the next BP movie is 2022/23? Disney will probs just say yes it's sad he died but theres no other news/update as of this time re going forward. Just avoid announcing anything re BP actor for some time which is natural anyway as the movie is not out for a while (at the same time avoiding politics).
They should definitely recast BP whether it's just the continuation of the same iteration of the character or via an alternate universe considering WandaVision and Multiverse of Madness. Although if BP was meant to appear in previous film/s (guessing 1 max) I guess they could use extra unused cut scenes smartly featuring him, doesnt even have to be that-there are ways to show him without actually showing him
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2020 13:56:56 GMT 1
Sure it's sad that he died of cancer but the reality is this, people die everyday and the world doesnt stop nor should it as it would be impractical. Life goes on. It should be up to Disney and Disney alone to decide how they are going to move forward. Unfortunately in this woke world, especially very woke America, Disney's decision might be taken hostage by current politics. There's no real rush to do anything about it for now. Covid delays and I think the next BP movie is 2022/23? Disney will probs just say yes it's sad he died but theres no other news/update as of this time re going forward. Just avoid announcing anything re BP actor for some time which is natural anyway as the movie is not out for a while (at the same time avoiding politics). They should definitely recast BP whether it's just the continuation of the same iteration of the character or via an alternate universe considering WandaVision and Multiverse of Madness. Although if BP was meant to appear in previous film/s (guessing 1 max) I guess they could use extra unused cut scenes smartly featuring him, doesnt even have to be that-there are ways to show him without actually showing him With modern technology, all they need is a body double they can overlay the CGI image of Chadwick Boseman on to - when he's not is his superhero costume - and a voice artist who can approximate the sound of his voice and speech patterns.
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Post by hobowar on Sept 3, 2020 0:28:27 GMT 1
Couldn't agree more.
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Post by Chalice_Of_Evil on Sept 3, 2020 5:52:54 GMT 1
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Post by hobowar on Sept 3, 2020 5:57:49 GMT 1
Sure it's sad that he died of cancer but the reality is this, people die everyday and the world doesnt stop nor should it as it would be impractical. Life goes on. It should be up to Disney and Disney alone to decide how they are going to move forward. Unfortunately in this woke world, especially very woke America, Disney's decision might be taken hostage by current politics. There's no real rush to do anything about it for now. Covid delays and I think the next BP movie is 2022/23? Disney will probs just say yes it's sad he died but theres no other news/update as of this time re going forward. Just avoid announcing anything re BP actor for some time which is natural anyway as the movie is not out for a while (at the same time avoiding politics). They should definitely recast BP whether it's just the continuation of the same iteration of the character or via an alternate universe considering WandaVision and Multiverse of Madness. Although if BP was meant to appear in previous film/s (guessing 1 max) I guess they could use extra unused cut scenes smartly featuring him, doesnt even have to be that-there are ways to show him without actually showing him With modern technology, all they need is a body double they can overlay the CGI image of Chadwick Boseman on to - when he's not is his superhero costume - and a voice artist who can approximate the sound of his voice and speech patterns. Deepfaking a whole movie might come across a tad disrespectful.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2020 6:28:43 GMT 1
With modern technology, all they need is a body double they can overlay the CGI image of Chadwick Boseman on to - when he's not is his superhero costume - and a voice artist who can approximate the sound of his voice and speech patterns. Deepfaking a whole movie might come across a tad disrespectful. And...? If there's a profit to be made, do you think that would stop Disney... or any other large business or company?
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Post by Lord Death Man on Sept 3, 2020 17:31:38 GMT 1
To recast or not to recast is a false dichotomy that I have chosen to ignore for the time being.
Grief has clouded people's judgment and distorted their sense of perspective on this issue. Those who feel adamant that the role should never be recast will soften with time. What they are proposing is similar to saying that because Heath Ledger died tragically and was adored by fans, there should never be another movie that features the Joker.
There is no need to convince people that Black Panther should be recast. He will be - that's inevitable. The character is too iconic to ever let him fade away.
The only question that deserves consideration is when will it be appropriate to recast the character and move forward. Do we wait until the next iteration of the MCU? Or do we move forward straightaways? We did recast Joker, but we never see that iteration of the character some back in that particular trilogy.
I think the Black Panther series should be elevated beyond a typical trilogy and converted into an anthology series about Wakanda, which encompasses the exploits of multiple Black Panthers. The Story of the first Black Panther - Beshenga, is compelling. T'Chaka's exploits as a younger man are also worth examining.
With Black Panther, it's not just the character of T'Challa that makes up the crux of the mythology. There are many corners of that world to examine. And while T'Challa must undoubtedly return, I think the most compelling tribute we can pay to Chadwick is to explore the Black Panther's lineage and retinue more fully.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Sept 3, 2020 18:07:38 GMT 1
To recast or not to recast is a false dichotomy that I have chosen to ignore for the time being. Grief has clouded people's judgment and distorted their sense of perspective on this issue. Those who feel adamant that the role should never be recast will soften with time. What they are proposing is similar to saying that because Heath Ledger died tragically and was adored by fans, there should never be another movie that features the Joker. There is no need to convince people that Black Panther should be recast. He will be - that's inevitable. The character is too iconic to ever let him fade away. The only question that deserves consideration is when will it be appropriate to recast the character and move forward. Do we wait until the next iteration of the MCU? Or do we move forward straightaways? We did recast Joker, but we never see that iteration of the character some back in that particular trilogy. I think the Black Panther series should be elevated beyond a typical trilogy and converted into an anthology series about Wakanda, which encompasses the exploits of multiple Black Panthers. The Story of the first Black Panther - Beshenga, is compelling. T'Chaka's exploits as a younger man are also worth examining. With Black Panther, it's not just the character of T'Challa that makes up the crux of the mythology. There are many corners of that world to examine. And while T'Challa must undoubtedly return, I think the most compelling tribute we can pay to Chadwick is to explore the Black Panther's lineage and retinue more fully. Great points and I mostly agree actually. A view thoughts, starting with the Joker example. While it’s true we don’t see him again in that series, that series always wasn’t destined to last 10-20 more years. If we don’t recast Tchalla now, we’ll be eliminating the character for decades. I do like the idea of an anthology series more focused on the past, which adds detail. It’s a more creative solution than just passing it to Shuri IMO, because while that makes complete sense, it doesn’t do anything to solve the issue of the lack of T’challa’s presence. So yeah, I love the idea of historical films actually. Brilliant choice. I like the idea that the Panther is about the history of Wakanda. That’s true. But the idea of who the Panther is and keeping T’Challa seems to get muddied. I’ve had a lot of people respond by saying the mantle could be passed and yes it could, but I’m talking specifically about keeping T’Challa. I’m really for that.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Sept 3, 2020 18:28:14 GMT 1
To recast or not to recast is a false dichotomy that I have chosen to ignore for the time being. Grief has clouded people's judgment and distorted their sense of perspective on this issue. Those who feel adamant that the role should never be recast will soften with time. What they are proposing is similar to saying that because Heath Ledger died tragically and was adored by fans, there should never be another movie that features the Joker. There is no need to convince people that Black Panther should be recast. He will be - that's inevitable. The character is too iconic to ever let him fade away. The only question that deserves consideration is when will it be appropriate to recast the character and move forward. Do we wait until the next iteration of the MCU? Or do we move forward straightaways? We did recast Joker, but we never see that iteration of the character some back in that particular trilogy. I think the Black Panther series should be elevated beyond a typical trilogy and converted into an anthology series about Wakanda, which encompasses the exploits of multiple Black Panthers. The Story of the first Black Panther - Beshenga, is compelling. T'Chaka's exploits as a younger man are also worth examining. With Black Panther, it's not just the character of T'Challa that makes up the crux of the mythology. There are many corners of that world to examine. And while T'Challa must undoubtedly return, I think the most compelling tribute we can pay to Chadwick is to explore the Black Panther's lineage and retinue more fully. Great points and I mostly agree actually. A view thoughts, starting with the Joker example. While it’s true we don’t see him again in that series, that series always wasn’t destined to last 10-20 more years. If we don’t recast Tchalla now, we’ll be eliminating the character for decades. I do like the idea of an anthology series more focused on the past, which adds detail. It’s a more creative solution than just passing it to Shuri IMO, because while that makes complete sense, it doesn’t do anything to solve the issue of the lack of T’challa’s presence. I like the idea that the Panther is about the history of Wakanda. That’s true. But the idea of who the Panther is and keeping T’Challa seems to get muddied. I’ve had a lot of people respond by saying the mantle could be passed and yes it could, but I’m talking specifically about keeping T’Challa. I’m really for that. Keeping T'Challa is also not at issue here. The series doesn't work without its young king. The question is about timing, and honestly, answering it requires an emotional IQ that most who are pushing for him to return tomorrow don't have. If you think you know the answer to that question right now - you're probably wrong. The handling of the character's return requires considering other people's feelings. Disney needs to be listening right now and not necessarily planning anything. When should T'Challa return? That is the question. I can tell you that the answer is more mercurial than one might think. At this moment, it is not --- in the next exciting installment of the trilogy. I, PERSONALLY, would be okay with T'Challa not returning until the third film or waiting until the next inevitable MCU iteration. I also think if they do recast the character, they shouldn't be obligated to continue the current story as if nothing happened. That, I feel, would be somewhat disrespectful to Chadwick, and it would create an undue and unfair burden on the incoming actor. Joaquin Phoenix's Joker works because he was free to do something different with the character in an entirely new context. I do not wish to see the actor who replaces Chadwick become the Backy Conner, Darrin Stevens, or Marilyn Munster of the MCU.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Sept 3, 2020 19:11:39 GMT 1
Great points and I mostly agree actually. A view thoughts, starting with the Joker example. While it’s true we don’t see him again in that series, that series always wasn’t destined to last 10-20 more years. If we don’t recast Tchalla now, we’ll be eliminating the character for decades. I do like the idea of an anthology series more focused on the past, which adds detail. It’s a more creative solution than just passing it to Shuri IMO, because while that makes complete sense, it doesn’t do anything to solve the issue of the lack of T’challa’s presence. I like the idea that the Panther is about the history of Wakanda. That’s true. But the idea of who the Panther is and keeping T’Challa seems to get muddied. I’ve had a lot of people respond by saying the mantle could be passed and yes it could, but I’m talking specifically about keeping T’Challa. I’m really for that. Keeping T'Challa is also not at issue here. The series doesn't work without its young king. The question is about timing, and honestly, answering it requires an emotional IQ that most who are pushing for him to return tomorrow don't have. If you think you know the answer to that question right now - you're probably wrong. The handling of the character's return requires considering other people's feelings. Disney needs to be listening right now and not necessarily planning anything. When should T'Challa return? That is the question. I can tell you that the answer is more mercurial than one might think. At this moment, it is not --- in the next exciting installment of the trilogy. I, PERSONALLY, would be okay with T'Challa not returning until the third film or waiting until the next inevitable MCU iteration. I also think if they do recast the character, they shouldn't be obligated to continue the current story as if nothing happened. That, I feel, would be somewhat disrespectful to Chadwick, and it would create an undue and unfair burden on the incoming actor. Joaquin Phoenix's Joker works because he was free to do something different with the character in an entirely new context. I do not wish to see the actor who replaces Chadwick become the Backy Conner, Darrin Stevens, or Marilyn Munster of the MCU. ehhh I’m not proclaiming to make the decision, or ignoring feelings, or saying a decision needs to be made immediately. I’m just responding to reactions of recasting being offensive by presenting a well thought through case for why it’s very positive. The decision is not in my hands. I’m merely advocating for the option because I feel it’s fair to talk about if others are saying it’s somehow not allowed. Personally I wish a new actor to have that opportunity to do the role justice for the community and in Chadwicks honor. He doesn’t have to be Chadwick, he just has to take that baton. It’s not a message of replacement, it’s a message that legacies endure. And I do not see taking that away as the only route to being respectful. That’s all I’m imparting.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Sept 3, 2020 19:56:38 GMT 1
Keeping T'Challa is also not at issue here. The series doesn't work without its young king. The question is about timing, and honestly, answering it requires an emotional IQ that most who are pushing for him to return tomorrow don't have. If you think you know the answer to that question right now - you're probably wrong. The handling of the character's return requires considering other people's feelings. Disney needs to be listening right now and not necessarily planning anything. When should T'Challa return? That is the question. I can tell you that the answer is more mercurial than one might think. At this moment, it is not --- in the next exciting installment of the trilogy. I, PERSONALLY, would be okay with T'Challa not returning until the third film or waiting until the next inevitable MCU iteration. I also think if they do recast the character, they shouldn't be obligated to continue the current story as if nothing happened. That, I feel, would be somewhat disrespectful to Chadwick, and it would create an undue and unfair burden on the incoming actor. Joaquin Phoenix's Joker works because he was free to do something different with the character in an entirely new context. I do not wish to see the actor who replaces Chadwick become the Backy Conner, Darrin Stevens, or Marilyn Munster of the MCU. ehhh I’m not proclaiming to make the decision, or ignoring feelings, or saying a decision needs to be made immediately. I’m just responding to reactions of recasting being offensive by presenting a well thought through case for why it’s very positive. The decision is not in my hands. I’m merely advocating for the option because I feel it’s fair to talk about if others are saying it’s somehow not allowed. Personally I wish a new actor to have that opportunity to do the role justice for the community and in Chadwicks honor. He doesn’t have to be Chadwick, he just has to take that baton. It’s not a message of replacement, it’s a message that legacies endure. And I do not see taking that away as the only route to being respectful. That’s all I’m imparting. That's clear and fair. I just think your efforts are being directed towards a non-issue that will inevitably resolve itself. The character will be recast. I don't feel the need to convince anyone of that.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Sept 3, 2020 20:01:35 GMT 1
ehhh I’m not proclaiming to make the decision, or ignoring feelings, or saying a decision needs to be made immediately. I’m just responding to reactions of recasting being offensive by presenting a well thought through case for why it’s very positive. The decision is not in my hands. I’m merely advocating for the option because I feel it’s fair to talk about if others are saying it’s somehow not allowed. Personally I wish a new actor to have that opportunity to do the role justice for the community and in Chadwicks honor. He doesn’t have to be Chadwick, he just has to take that baton. It’s not a message of replacement, it’s a message that legacies endure. And I do not see taking that away as the only route to being respectful. That’s all I’m imparting. That's clear and fair. I just think your efforts are being directed towards a non-issue that will inevitably resolve itself. The character will be recast. I don't feel the need to convince anyone of that. Thats fine, but I wanted to take a stand on it. I feel strongly about it.
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