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Post by ])-Kyle "Wild Child" Gibney-([ on Mar 2, 2024 19:46:41 GMT 1
I consider these to be the best X-Men movies in the Foxverse.
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Post by WOLVERINE JACK! on Mar 2, 2024 20:52:47 GMT 1
X2 easily. I was never a big fan of First Class. X1 and Days of… are also much better in my opinion
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Post by ])-Kyle "Wild Child" Gibney-([ on Mar 3, 2024 4:11:54 GMT 1
X2 easily. I was never a big fan of First Class. X1 and Days of… are also much better in my opinion Why is X1 better?
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Post by Merv on Mar 3, 2024 5:52:15 GMT 1
X2
Even if I don't hold it in as high a regard as I did when it came out...it was a milestone for me as a superhero movie. For years it was about as good as I could expect.
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Post by WOLVERINE JACK! on Mar 3, 2024 6:47:34 GMT 1
X2 easily. I was never a big fan of First Class. X1 and Days of… are also much better in my opinion Why is X1 better? The characters mainly. Perhaps I should say that I prefer it rather than it being objectively better. But I just like McKellen, Stewart and JackMan in the roles more than the First Class actors. Also I don’t care much for the supporting characters outside Xavier and Magneto in First Class. The Magneto revenge scenes are pretty badass though. He’s got a killer theme.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Mar 3, 2024 9:03:11 GMT 1
First Class - sadly, the X franchise hasn't aged as well for me as some other IPs, but I do recognize X1 for moving the state-of-the-art of the genre further along.
Vaughn is just the stronger and more confident director. He gets better dramatic performances and makes the material feel far less dour and maudlin. For me, the most memorable moments of X1 are the cringy dialogue and awkward scenarios.
First Class, while not perfect by any means, has a certain carefree confidence X1 lacks. Kevin Bacon's Shaw put a much-needed end to the overserious X-Men villains. The Singer films feel like extended pity parties for mutants.
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Post by ])-Kyle "Wild Child" Gibney-([ on Mar 3, 2024 9:07:18 GMT 1
X2 Even if I don't hold it in as high a regard as I did when it came out...it was a milestone for me as a superhero movie. For years it was about as good as I could expect. I think it still holds up amazingly well. Maybe it's my bias-I duno ha. I think it's better than maybe more than half of the mcu movies. For me it really has more than enough entertainment value. Like with Lady Deathstrike. Thats what should have been done in Logan, instead of his evil clone or the other villains. Creed would have been a no-brainer or the other Logan villains. Instead we got the clone, blond guy (if it wasnt for the particular actor he would score even lower) and some old man who was underwhelming
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Post by ])-Kyle "Wild Child" Gibney-([ on Mar 3, 2024 9:16:35 GMT 1
First Class - sadly, the X franchise hasn't aged as well for me as some other IPs, but I do recognize X1 for moving the state-of-the-art of the genre further along. Vaughn is just the stronger and more confident director. He gets better dramatic performances and makes the material feel far less dour and maudlin. For me, the most memorable moments of X1 are the cringy dialogue and awkward scenarios. First Class, while not perfect by any means, has a certain carefree confidence X1 lacks. Kevin Bacon's Shaw put a much-needed end to the overserious X-Men villains. The Singer films feel like extended pity parties for mutants. Shaw was great. Awesome to have the Hellfire Club in this. Emma Frost (maybe the actress too) was pretty bland in this but she's probably more interesting when she joins the X-Men so what can you do really with her. More for eye candy. Azazel didnt do an awful lot, like he could have as his son did in X2
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Post by Lord Death Man on Mar 3, 2024 9:35:48 GMT 1
First Class - sadly, the X franchise hasn't aged as well for me as some other IPs, but I do recognize X1 for moving the state-of-the-art of the genre further along. Vaughn is just the stronger and more confident director. He gets better dramatic performances and makes the material feel far less dour and maudlin. For me, the most memorable moments of X1 are the cringy dialogue and awkward scenarios. First Class, while not perfect by any means, has a certain carefree confidence X1 lacks. Kevin Bacon's Shaw put a much-needed end to the overserious X-Men villains. The Singer films feel like extended pity parties for mutants. Shaw was great. Awesome to have the Hellfire Club in this. Emma Frost (maybe the actress too) was pretty bland in this but she's probably more interesting when she joins the X-Men so what can you do really with her. More for eye candy. Azazel didnt do an awful lot, like he could have as his son did in X2 January Jones is at a distinct disadvantage when compared to her colleagues. She has no acting ability whatsoever. First Class was like a breath of fresh air in a closet that had grown somewhat musty. Singer certainly had his moments, but I think Vaughn had more style and creativity in realizing the various mutant powers.
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Post by AQUA CAT! on Mar 3, 2024 19:05:27 GMT 1
Shaw was great. Awesome to have the Hellfire Club in this. Emma Frost (maybe the actress too) was pretty bland in this but she's probably more interesting when she joins the X-Men so what can you do really with her. More for eye candy. Azazel didnt do an awful lot, like he could have as his son did in X2 January Jones is at a distinct disadvantage when compared to her colleagues. She has no acting ability whatsoever. First Class was like a breath of fresh air in a closet that had grown somewhat musty. Singer certainly had his moments, but I think Vaughn had more style and creativity in realizing the various mutant powers. I just slightly give the edge to X2. I'd recommend First Class as the better movie to the uninitiated for the reasons you gave. The breath of fresh air factor was enormous. I've said a dozen times because I really meant it that when First Class came out, I thought it was a different franchise altogether, and that Hugh Jackman cameo was an inside joke. Everything seemed different. New energy. New colour scheme. New cast and characters.
The more I think about it, the less sense it makes that it would be a different franchise altogether because of the exact same Holocaust scene at the beginning, but that's how strong the feeling of rebirth and newness was to me when it ended.
I've come to regard the first 2 X-Men movies as safe and harmless. They're its strengths and weaknesses. They aim for line drives and that's what they get. They're nobody's home runs that I know of. X2 was more ambitious than the first and had a more interesting screenplay with some better graphics. I agree Vaughn had more style and creativity though. If anything the rest were a letdown compared to the one time Vaughan took the reins because, despite all the social commentaries in the X-Men, what makes them on any screen and in any medium is their powers. Come for the social commentary perhaps, but stay for the powers.
I think First Class is superior, but I've a soft spot for X2.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Mar 4, 2024 3:39:45 GMT 1
January Jones is at a distinct disadvantage when compared to her colleagues. She has no acting ability whatsoever. First Class was like a breath of fresh air in a closet that had grown somewhat musty. Singer certainly had his moments, but I think Vaughn had more style and creativity in realizing the various mutant powers. I just slightly give the edge to X2. I'd recommend First Class as the better movie to the uninitiated for the reasons you gave. The breath of fresh air factor was enormous. I've said a dozen times because I really meant it that when First Class came out, I thought it was a different franchise altogether, and that Hugh Jackman cameo was an inside joke. Everything seemed different. New energy. New colour scheme. New cast and characters.
The more I think about it, the less sense it makes that it would be a different franchise altogether because of the exact same Holocaust scene at the beginning, but that's how strong the feeling of rebirth and newness was to me when it ended.
I've come to regard the first 2 X-Men movies as safe and harmless. They're its strengths and weaknesses. They aim for line drives and that's what they get. They're nobody's home runs that I know of. X2 was more ambitious than the first and had a more interesting screenplay with some better graphics. I agree Vaughn had more style and creativity though. If anything the rest were a letdown compared to the one time Vaughan took the reins because, despite all the social commentaries in the X-Men, what makes them on any screen and in any medium is their powers. Come for the social commentary perhaps, but stay for the powers.
I think First Class is superior, but I've a soft spot for X2.
I completely understand your perspective on X2. The sad truth is that Bryan Singer's controversies have somewhat sullied those films for me. Rewatches after the "allegations" surfaced never quite hit the same. First Class really did feel like a breath of fresh air; it was so vibrant compared to the previous films. The new cast really bought a different dynamic to the franchise. The way it rebooted the series while still acknowledging its roots (as you mentioned, the Holocaust scene) was indeed remarkable. Matthew Vaughn's direction brought a unique style and creativity that set the film apart for me.
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Post by Grandmaster on Mar 4, 2024 7:44:32 GMT 1
First Class. Like X2 too. And Logan. Basically thats it when it comes the FoX-Menverse.
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Post by Indiana Jones on Mar 5, 2024 3:01:22 GMT 1
First Class, but it's close between the two.
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Post by ])-Kyle "Wild Child" Gibney-([ on Mar 5, 2024 6:48:05 GMT 1
I just slightly give the edge to X2. I'd recommend First Class as the better movie to the uninitiated for the reasons you gave. The breath of fresh air factor was enormous. I've said a dozen times because I really meant it that when First Class came out, I thought it was a different franchise altogether, and that Hugh Jackman cameo was an inside joke. Everything seemed different. New energy. New colour scheme. New cast and characters.
The more I think about it, the less sense it makes that it would be a different franchise altogether because of the exact same Holocaust scene at the beginning, but that's how strong the feeling of rebirth and newness was to me when it ended.
I've come to regard the first 2 X-Men movies as safe and harmless. They're its strengths and weaknesses. They aim for line drives and that's what they get. They're nobody's home runs that I know of. X2 was more ambitious than the first and had a more interesting screenplay with some better graphics. I agree Vaughn had more style and creativity though. If anything the rest were a letdown compared to the one time Vaughan took the reins because, despite all the social commentaries in the X-Men, what makes them on any screen and in any medium is their powers. Come for the social commentary perhaps, but stay for the powers.
I think First Class is superior, but I've a soft spot for X2.
I completely understand your perspective on X2. The sad truth is that Bryan Singer's controversies have somewhat sullied those films for me. Rewatches after the "allegations" surfaced never quite hit the same. First Class really did feel like a breath of fresh air; it was so vibrant compared to the previous films. The new cast really bought a different dynamic to the franchise. The way it rebooted the series while still acknowledging its roots (as you mentioned, the Holocaust scene) was indeed remarkable. Matthew Vaughn's direction brought a unique style and creativity that set the film apart for me. This is an interesting conversation point re Bryan Singer's controversies. Last I heard he is hiding in Israel. However, I think some of us are too bogged down with the one person of a movie or tv show. There are so many others involved in the making of them. It wouldnt be fair to them imo
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Post by Lord Death Man on Mar 5, 2024 16:07:43 GMT 1
I completely understand your perspective on X2. The sad truth is that Bryan Singer's controversies have somewhat sullied those films for me. Rewatches after the "allegations" surfaced never quite hit the same. First Class really did feel like a breath of fresh air; it was so vibrant compared to the previous films. The new cast really bought a different dynamic to the franchise. The way it rebooted the series while still acknowledging its roots (as you mentioned, the Holocaust scene) was indeed remarkable. Matthew Vaughn's direction brought a unique style and creativity that set the film apart for me. This is an interesting conversation point re Bryan Singer's controversies. Last I heard he is hiding in Israel. However, I think some of us are too bogged down with the one person of a movie or tv show. There are so many others involved in the making of them. It wouldnt be fair to them imo I agree with you wholeheartedly, but my aversion to those films isn't a function of anything rationale. It's purely emotional, so while the hundreds of others involved in making the films are not at fault, fairness doesn't necessarily play into my calculation. I don't like mentioning Singer because 99.9% of the fandom can watch those films with little to no adverse reaction. Still, it becomes fatiguing to gush about something you no longer have any affinity for. I'm glad that everyone else is still enjoying those films, and maybe one day, I'll put them on and not overthink the negative. Another aspect of the Fox-X-Men franchise that's become insufferable for me is the feared-and-hated narrative that informs most of the films. I get it—they are mutants, but I'm ready for a new, more empowered take on the X-Men. In all fairness, the MCU will likely not perfectly realize the X-Men and mutant kind in live-action, especially given their recent track record, but at the very least, it will be something new.
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Post by AQUA CAT! on Mar 5, 2024 16:50:24 GMT 1
This is an interesting conversation point re Bryan Singer's controversies. Last I heard he is hiding in Israel. However, I think some of us are too bogged down with the one person of a movie or tv show. There are so many others involved in the making of them. It wouldnt be fair to them imo I agree with you wholeheartedly, but my aversion to those films isn't a function of anything rationale. It's purely emotional, so while the hundreds of others involved in making the films are not at fault, fairness doesn't necessarily play into my calculation. I don't like mentioning Singer because 99.9% of the fandom can watch those films with little to no adverse reaction. Still, it becomes fatiguing to gush about something you no longer have any affinity for. I'm glad that everyone else is still enjoying those films, and maybe one day, I'll put them on and not overthink the negative. Another aspect of the Fox-X-Men franchise that's become insufferable for me is the feared-and-hated narrative that informs most of the films. I get it—they are mutants, but I'm ready for a new, more empowered take on the X-Men. In all fairness, the MCU will likely not perfectly realize the X-Men and mutant kind in live-action, especially given their recent track record, but at the very least, it will be something new. It's a tough tightrope to be sure. I was a really big fan of Kevin Spacey. He was one of the first actors ever for me who was an actor despite being a normal looking guy. You could pass him in a supermarket and not even notice. Can't do that with Arnie or Stallone. Spacey had to turn it on, and when he turned it on, he would become someone you couldn't ignore.
That said, I haven't really watched his stuff since his scandals either. They're not any less good as movies, and he's no less good in them. The interest just isn't there for me. I never got around to watching Baby Driver because I hadn't seen it by the time the allegations against him came out. I'm not boycotting it or avoiding it out of principle, nor would I advise anyone to do the same. I've heard it's good and it probably is. I'm just not into that. Not yet.
I think the fear/hate narrative in the X-Men is an oldie but a goodie. My lesson was more/less learned from the animated series, so I don't really know what other new and shocking territories they can take it. I'm not sure there is an unrealized version of the X-Men floating out there that gets it all. For me that was the 90's series because it had the themes and the animation to match. The message doesn't slap as hard because I'm used to it, but I think it's still a good message even if I'd heard it too many times.
Animation in my opinion is probably the route to go because they're only limited by what they can draw.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Mar 5, 2024 18:31:29 GMT 1
I agree with you wholeheartedly, but my aversion to those films isn't a function of anything rationale. It's purely emotional, so while the hundreds of others involved in making the films are not at fault, fairness doesn't necessarily play into my calculation. I don't like mentioning Singer because 99.9% of the fandom can watch those films with little to no adverse reaction. Still, it becomes fatiguing to gush about something you no longer have any affinity for. I'm glad that everyone else is still enjoying those films, and maybe one day, I'll put them on and not overthink the negative. Another aspect of the Fox-X-Men franchise that's become insufferable for me is the feared-and-hated narrative that informs most of the films. I get it—they are mutants, but I'm ready for a new, more empowered take on the X-Men. In all fairness, the MCU will likely not perfectly realize the X-Men and mutant kind in live-action, especially given their recent track record, but at the very least, it will be something new. It's a tough tightrope to be sure. I was a really big fan of Kevin Spacey. He was one of the first actors ever for me who was an actor despite being a normal looking guy. You could pass him in a supermarket and not even notice. Can't do that with Arnie or Stallone. Spacey had to turn it on, and when he turned it on, he would become someone you couldn't ignore.
That said, I haven't really watched his stuff since his scandals either. They're not any less good as movies, and he's no less good in them. The interest just isn't there for me. I never got around to watching Baby Driver because I hadn't seen it by the time the allegations against him came out. I'm not boycotting it or avoiding it out of principle, nor would I advise anyone to do the same. I've heard it's good and it probably is. I'm just not into that. Not yet.
I think the fear/hate narrative in the X-Men is an oldie but a goodie. My lesson was more/less learned from the animated series, so I don't really know what other new and shocking territories they can take it. I'm not sure there is an unrealized version of the X-Men floating out there that gets it all. For me that was the 90's series because it had the themes and the animation to match. The message doesn't slap as hard because I'm used to it, but I think it's still a good message even if I'd heard it too many times.
Animation in my opinion is probably the route to go because they're only limited by what they can draw.
I'm glad we're having such a thoughtful discourse on the subject. These conversations can be rife with triggers and minefields in other digital spaces. I've also found myself less enthusiastic regarding Spacey's films. It used to be that I would watch almost anything he was in without needing to know much about the project. Even films as meandering and ridiculous as Carnal Knowledge became watchable when injected with his talent. Now, it feels like a chore to revisit any of his movies. I can do it, but there's much less enjoyment in it. I'm not talking about a conscious avoidance or boycott of anything, to be sure. I don't like those X-Men films as much as I used to—that's mostly all there is to them. And it's probably a sign of changing taste and growing up just as much as it is a slight aversion to Bryan Singer's work. I have a love-hate relationship with the hated-and-feared narrative. When I was younger, I deeply admired the X-Men for being heroes and champions of humanity despite humanity's deep fear and resentment of their kind. Growing up in a religious household, the X-Men's steadfast desire to help humanity seemed almost Christlike in its dimensions of martyrdom. They were the ultimate heroes because they did the job for people who hated them. As I grew older, read more contemporary X-Men stories, and frankly became more cynical about the world and humanity, the X-Men's martyrdom complex seemed less and less heroic. Their aversion to joy and pleasure began to seem like a ridiculous form of low self-esteem, if not a wholesale form of naiveté. I suspect some writers sensed as much and started focusing more on mutant infighting and less on the X-Men, repeatedly saving the world (only to be publicly flogged for their efforts). A new narrative of mutant pride (and not supremacy) began to take shape in the early 2000s, and it was just what the IP needed. That said, the constant infighting among mutants has become dull and predictable. There is little mileage left in mutants vs. humanity struggles, too. We need a return to the X-Men as unassailable heroes who are unashamed of what they are and will fight for what is right no matter the difficulty. In other words, I've come back full circle to what made the X-Men so appealing to me in the first place. If I had my druthers, the X-Men would be introduced to the MCU as seemingly stock heroes who are younger and more effective than their established counterparts. They would become media sensations because they're young, attractive, and now. From the public's vantage point, the X-Men would seem to possess a level of coordination that makes outfits like the Avengers look like a little league baseball team. Of course, this would be easy to accomplish with a telepathic boss coordinating your movements behind the scenes. This initial love affair with the X-Men would slowly unravel as people began to ask difficult questions. Are those wings mechanical? Does the girl use some form of Stark tech to levitate massive objects? Is the young man with the lasers for eyes an alien? What mechanism could generate so much intense cold that it freezes objects to their shattering point? Why does the acrobat have simian traits? At some point, people would begin to piece together that these heroes don't use advanced tech, weren't subjected to exotic radiation, and don't hail from other worlds - they were born that way. And thus, the age of the mutant begins.
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Post by AQUA CAT! on Mar 6, 2024 19:39:25 GMT 1
It's a tough tightrope to be sure. I was a really big fan of Kevin Spacey. He was one of the first actors ever for me who was an actor despite being a normal looking guy. You could pass him in a supermarket and not even notice. Can't do that with Arnie or Stallone. Spacey had to turn it on, and when he turned it on, he would become someone you couldn't ignore.
That said, I haven't really watched his stuff since his scandals either. They're not any less good as movies, and he's no less good in them. The interest just isn't there for me. I never got around to watching Baby Driver because I hadn't seen it by the time the allegations against him came out. I'm not boycotting it or avoiding it out of principle, nor would I advise anyone to do the same. I've heard it's good and it probably is. I'm just not into that. Not yet.
I think the fear/hate narrative in the X-Men is an oldie but a goodie. My lesson was more/less learned from the animated series, so I don't really know what other new and shocking territories they can take it. I'm not sure there is an unrealized version of the X-Men floating out there that gets it all. For me that was the 90's series because it had the themes and the animation to match. The message doesn't slap as hard because I'm used to it, but I think it's still a good message even if I'd heard it too many times.
Animation in my opinion is probably the route to go because they're only limited by what they can draw.
I'm glad we're having such a thoughtful discourse on the subject. These conversations can be rife with triggers and minefields in other digital spaces. I've also found myself less enthusiastic regarding Spacey's films. It used to be that I would watch almost anything he was in without needing to know much about the project. Even films as meandering and ridiculous as Carnal Knowledge became watchable when injected with his talent. Now, it feels like a chore to revisit any of his movies. I can do it, but there's much less enjoyment in it. I'm not talking about an conscious avoidance or a boycott of anything, to be sure. I don't like those X-Men films as much as I used to - that's mostly all their is to it. And it's probably a sign of changing taste and growing up just as much as it is a slight aversion to Bryan Singer's work. I have a love-hate relationship with the hated-and-feared narrative. When I was younger, I deeply admired the X-Men for being heroes and champions of humanity despite humanity's deep fear and resentment of their kind. Growing up in a religious household, the X-Men's steadfast desire to help humanity seemed almost Christlike in its dimensions of martyrdom. They were the ultimate heroes because they did the job for people who hated them. As I grew older, read more contemporary X-Men stories, and frankly became more cynical about the world and humanity, the X-Men's martyrdom complex seemed less and less heroic. Their aversion to joy and pleasure began to seem like a ridiculous form of low-self esteem, if not a wholesale form of naiveté. I suspect some of the writers sensed as much and started focusing more on mutant infighting and less on the X-Men, repeatedly saving the world only to be battered by the public for their efforts. A new narrative of mutant pride (and not supremacy) began to take shape in the early 2000s, and it was just what the IP needed. That said, the constant infighting among mutants has become dull and predictable. There is little mileage left in mutants vs. humanity struggles, too. We need a return to the X-Men as unassailable heroes who are unashamed of what they are and will fight for what is right no matter the difficulty. In other words, I've come back full circle to what made the X-Men so appealing to me in the first place. If I had my druthers, the X-Men would be introduced to the MCU as seemingly stock heroes who are younger and more effective than their established counterparts. They would become media sensations because they're young, attractive, and now. From the public's vantage point, the X-Men would seem to possess a level of coordination that makes outfits like the Avengers look like a little league baseball team. Of course, this would be easy to accomplish with a telepathic boss coordinating your movements behind the scenes. This initial love affair with the X-Men would slowly unravel as people began to ask difficult questions. Are those wings mechanical? Does the girl use some form of Stark tech to levitate massive objects? Is the young man with the lasers for eyes an alien? What mechanism could generate so much intense cold that it freezes objects to their shattering point? Why does the acrobat have simian traits? At some point, people would begin to piece together that these heroes don't use advanced tech, weren't subjected to exotic radiation, and don't hail from other worlds - they were born that way. And thus, the age of the mutant begins. I'm unsure I want to see the X-Men in the MCU at all. I've lost interest more/less in the X-Men because I've had my fill. I took to the X-Men like a fish to water when I was young because they were mutants. Everything special about them were powers they could not change. They did a good job, in my opinion, of downplaying the joy of these powers because not all mutants could hide their powers or their appearances. The fact they were born mutants resonates with what I found the most appealing moral of the story. They were born that way. Their powers are most often the parts of them that people fear the most, but they're also what makes them special. The race, eugenics and supremacy motifs are there. When the subject of curing oneself of mutations came along, the story veered towards deeper questions about cures for homosexuality and mutants wrestling with changing themselves even if they wanted to. Therein actually lies my above observation about not being able to escape appearances while other mutants can, thereby passing for human and being privileged to the highest tier of an oppressed class. The X-Men always felt like people to me. I have difficulty imagining them as anything but a team. I think their powers are walking commentaries on their characters too. Rogue is a charming affectionate woman who can't touch. Wolverine heals instantaneously but is always in pain. Storm requires complete control to make her powers work and always walks a razor's edge. I don't consider them elites. The Avengers are packed with elites. They got royalty, billionaire industrialists, military personnel... only Spiderman and Ant-Man are really their working class members. What separates them though from the overall narrative of the X-Men is they create themselves. They created their armored suits, or were experimented on with serums, or were average beings on their planets but God-like on ours. I could be wrong but I've no impression that even characters from other worlds like Gamora or Drax are mutations from their own species. Gamora seems like her planet's version of a Black Widow. The Avengers all fit into the world they were born into and chose to fight for good. I'd argue the X-Men never had the choice. The X-Men can't take off their powers so they're in it until they die or until equity is achieved. They're very different worlds. No Avengers are truly safe after they retire because someone could always come after them, but the difference is someone might come after a retired Captain America because he's Captain America, whereas someone might come after a retired Cyclops because he's a mutant. It's an issue of individuality over identity that distinguishes the targets. I detect more law and order from the Avengers narrative, and I actually think superhero movies today are the new law and order movies. At least I suspect that's a role they fill because they become increasingly institutionalized and an arm of the government. The Justice League too. The Avengers and the Justice League have that more in common with each other than the X-Men because their job that they choose is to punch at chaos and restore things to normal. The Justice League is filled with elites too. Between Captain America, War Machine, Captain Marvel, and the odd Green Lantern, both teams are festooned with law and order. Yeah, the martyrdom complex can get tiresome. I find Magneto's martyrdom less insufferable than Professor X. No one gets to stick around and enjoy the martyr status. Wearing martyrdom as a personality trait is tedious to the nth degree. I agree with you about the X-Men's universe and martyrdom being a tired narrative. I disagree though that there's not much left in the mutants vs humans complex. In a world less racist, supremacist, prejudiced, etc., the mutant/human conflict wouldn't be doomed to continue being relevant. The smartest thing (in my opinion) the musty X-Men movies did was start out in a Holocaust scenario to make sure you knew mutants had this in common. Their existence is attached to no crime. The fears of the majority population don't have to be reasonable or make sense as long as they have the power. That makes them more dangerous than mutants. Everyday is an uphill battle when the system is against you. That's what gets me about the X-Men world. It's hard to see them belonging in the Avengers' world. Sorry for the lengthy post. I could probably never watch an X-Men property again and be happy, but the train of thought it started all those years ago still cooks.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Mar 6, 2024 22:15:32 GMT 1
I'm glad we're having such a thoughtful discourse on the subject. These conversations can be rife with triggers and minefields in other digital spaces. I've also found myself less enthusiastic regarding Spacey's films. It used to be that I would watch almost anything he was in without needing to know much about the project. Even films as meandering and ridiculous as Carnal Knowledge became watchable when injected with his talent. Now, it feels like a chore to revisit any of his movies. I can do it, but there's much less enjoyment in it. I'm not talking about an conscious avoidance or a boycott of anything, to be sure. I don't like those X-Men films as much as I used to - that's mostly all their is to it. And it's probably a sign of changing taste and growing up just as much as it is a slight aversion to Bryan Singer's work. I have a love-hate relationship with the hated-and-feared narrative. When I was younger, I deeply admired the X-Men for being heroes and champions of humanity despite humanity's deep fear and resentment of their kind. Growing up in a religious household, the X-Men's steadfast desire to help humanity seemed almost Christlike in its dimensions of martyrdom. They were the ultimate heroes because they did the job for people who hated them. As I grew older, read more contemporary X-Men stories, and frankly became more cynical about the world and humanity, the X-Men's martyrdom complex seemed less and less heroic. Their aversion to joy and pleasure began to seem like a ridiculous form of low-self esteem, if not a wholesale form of naiveté. I suspect some of the writers sensed as much and started focusing more on mutant infighting and less on the X-Men, repeatedly saving the world only to be battered by the public for their efforts. A new narrative of mutant pride (and not supremacy) began to take shape in the early 2000s, and it was just what the IP needed. That said, the constant infighting among mutants has become dull and predictable. There is little mileage left in mutants vs. humanity struggles, too. We need a return to the X-Men as unassailable heroes who are unashamed of what they are and will fight for what is right no matter the difficulty. In other words, I've come back full circle to what made the X-Men so appealing to me in the first place. If I had my druthers, the X-Men would be introduced to the MCU as seemingly stock heroes who are younger and more effective than their established counterparts. They would become media sensations because they're young, attractive, and now. From the public's vantage point, the X-Men would seem to possess a level of coordination that makes outfits like the Avengers look like a little league baseball team. Of course, this would be easy to accomplish with a telepathic boss coordinating your movements behind the scenes. This initial love affair with the X-Men would slowly unravel as people began to ask difficult questions. Are those wings mechanical? Does the girl use some form of Stark tech to levitate massive objects? Is the young man with the lasers for eyes an alien? What mechanism could generate so much intense cold that it freezes objects to their shattering point? Why does the acrobat have simian traits? At some point, people would begin to piece together that these heroes don't use advanced tech, weren't subjected to exotic radiation, and don't hail from other worlds - they were born that way. And thus, the age of the mutant begins. I'm unsure I want to see the X-Men in the MCU at all. I've lost interest more/less in the X-Men because I've had my fill. I took to the X-Men like a fish to water when I was young because they were mutants. Everything special about them were powers they could not change. They did a good job, in my opinion, of downplaying the joy of these powers because not all mutants could hide their powers or their appearances. The fact they were born mutants resonates with what I found the most appealing moral of the story. They were born that way. Their powers are most often the parts of them that people fear the most, but they're also what makes them special. The race, eugenics and supremacy motifs are there. When the subject of curing oneself of mutations came along, the story veered towards deeper questions about cures for homosexuality and mutants wrestling with changing themselves even if they wanted to. Therein actually lies my above observation about not being able to escape appearances while other mutants can, thereby passing for human and being privileged to the highest tier of an oppressed class. The X-Men always felt like people to me. I have difficulty imagining them as anything but a team. I think their powers are walking commentaries on their characters too. Rogue is a charming affectionate woman who can't touch. Wolverine heals instantaneously but is always in pain. Storm requires complete control to make her powers work and always walks a razor's edge. I don't consider them elites. The Avengers are packed with elites. They got royalty, billionaire industrialists, military personnel... only Spiderman and Ant-Man are really their working class members. What separates them though from the overall narrative of the X-Men is they create themselves. They created their armored suits, or were experimented on with serums, or were average beings on their planets but God-like on ours. I could be wrong but I've no impression that even characters from other worlds like Gamora or Drax are mutations from their own species. Gamora seems like her planet's version of a Black Widow. The Avengers all fit into the world they were born into and chose to fight for good. I'd argue the X-Men never had the choice. The X-Men can't take off their powers so they're in it until they die or until equity is achieved. They're very different worlds. No Avengers are truly safe after they retire because someone could always come after them, but the difference is someone might come after a retired Captain America because he's Captain America, whereas someone might come after a retired Cyclops because he's a mutant. It's an issue of individuality over identity that distinguishes the targets. I detect more law and order from the Avengers narrative, and I actually think superhero movies today are the new law and order movies. At least I suspect that's a role they fill because they become increasingly institutionalized and an arm of the government. The Justice League too. The Avengers and the Justice League have that more in common with each other than the X-Men because their job that they choose is to punch at chaos and restore things to normal. The Justice League is filled with elites too. Between Captain America, War Machine, Captain Marvel, and the odd Green Lantern, both teams are festooned with law and order. Yeah, the martyrdom complex can get tiresome. I find Magneto's martyrdom less insufferable than Professor X. No one gets to stick around and enjoy the martyr status. Wearing martyrdom as a personality trait is tedious to the nth degree. I agree with you about the X-Men's universe and martyrdom being a tired narrative. I disagree though that there's not much left in the mutants vs humans complex. In a world less racist, supremacist, prejudiced, etc., the mutant/human conflict wouldn't be doomed to continue being relevant. The smartest thing (in my opinion) the musty X-Men movies did was start out in a Holocaust scenario to make sure you knew mutants had this in common. Their existence is attached to no crime. The fears of the majority population don't have to be reasonable or make sense as long as they have the power. That makes them more dangerous than mutants. Everyday is an uphill battle when the system is against you. That's what gets me about the X-Men world. It's hard to see them belonging in the Avengers' world. Sorry for the lengthy post. I could probably never watch an X-Men property again and be happy, but the train of thought it started all those years ago still cooks. Wonderful post! At a quick read, my brain is latching onto your assertion that we can get more mileage out of the human vs. mutant discussion. I want to make the human argument more rooted in reason and less in irrational hatred. A mutant is a member of a new and different species, and we all know what happens when a new species appears; the old one is usually exterminated. Also, from the human perspective, you can't know—with certainty—that mutants can feel the complete spectrum of human emotions, urges, and instincts. Superficially, they appear to be sentient beings like ourselves, but are they really like us? This point is especially critical for mutants that don't have a body plan and appearance similar to ours. You can't look into Scott Summers' eyes to know whether or not he's telling you the truth. Maybe if the human perspective was less rooted in hysteria and blind panic, we might be able to tell a story that isn't so one-sided.
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Post by ])-Kyle "Wild Child" Gibney-([ on Mar 10, 2024 21:07:51 GMT 1
I'm glad we're having such a thoughtful discourse on the subject. These conversations can be rife with triggers and minefields in other digital spaces. I've also found myself less enthusiastic regarding Spacey's films. It used to be that I would watch almost anything he was in without needing to know much about the project. Even films as meandering and ridiculous as Carnal Knowledge became watchable when injected with his talent. Now, it feels like a chore to revisit any of his movies. I can do it, but there's much less enjoyment in it. I'm not talking about an conscious avoidance or a boycott of anything, to be sure. I don't like those X-Men films as much as I used to - that's mostly all their is to it. And it's probably a sign of changing taste and growing up just as much as it is a slight aversion to Bryan Singer's work. I have a love-hate relationship with the hated-and-feared narrative. When I was younger, I deeply admired the X-Men for being heroes and champions of humanity despite humanity's deep fear and resentment of their kind. Growing up in a religious household, the X-Men's steadfast desire to help humanity seemed almost Christlike in its dimensions of martyrdom. They were the ultimate heroes because they did the job for people who hated them. As I grew older, read more contemporary X-Men stories, and frankly became more cynical about the world and humanity, the X-Men's martyrdom complex seemed less and less heroic. Their aversion to joy and pleasure began to seem like a ridiculous form of low-self esteem, if not a wholesale form of naiveté. I suspect some of the writers sensed as much and started focusing more on mutant infighting and less on the X-Men, repeatedly saving the world only to be battered by the public for their efforts. A new narrative of mutant pride (and not supremacy) began to take shape in the early 2000s, and it was just what the IP needed. That said, the constant infighting among mutants has become dull and predictable. There is little mileage left in mutants vs. humanity struggles, too. We need a return to the X-Men as unassailable heroes who are unashamed of what they are and will fight for what is right no matter the difficulty. In other words, I've come back full circle to what made the X-Men so appealing to me in the first place. If I had my druthers, the X-Men would be introduced to the MCU as seemingly stock heroes who are younger and more effective than their established counterparts. They would become media sensations because they're young, attractive, and now. From the public's vantage point, the X-Men would seem to possess a level of coordination that makes outfits like the Avengers look like a little league baseball team. Of course, this would be easy to accomplish with a telepathic boss coordinating your movements behind the scenes. This initial love affair with the X-Men would slowly unravel as people began to ask difficult questions. Are those wings mechanical? Does the girl use some form of Stark tech to levitate massive objects? Is the young man with the lasers for eyes an alien? What mechanism could generate so much intense cold that it freezes objects to their shattering point? Why does the acrobat have simian traits? At some point, people would begin to piece together that these heroes don't use advanced tech, weren't subjected to exotic radiation, and don't hail from other worlds - they were born that way. And thus, the age of the mutant begins. I'm unsure I want to see the X-Men in the MCU at all. I've lost interest more/less in the X-Men because I've had my fill. I took to the X-Men like a fish to water when I was young because they were mutants. Everything special about them were powers they could not change. They did a good job, in my opinion, of downplaying the joy of these powers because not all mutants could hide their powers or their appearances. The fact they were born mutants resonates with what I found the most appealing moral of the story. They were born that way. Their powers are most often the parts of them that people fear the most, but they're also what makes them special. The race, eugenics and supremacy motifs are there. When the subject of curing oneself of mutations came along, the story veered towards deeper questions about cures for homosexuality and mutants wrestling with changing themselves even if they wanted to. Therein actually lies my above observation about not being able to escape appearances while other mutants can, thereby passing for human and being privileged to the highest tier of an oppressed class. The X-Men always felt like people to me. I have difficulty imagining them as anything but a team. I think their powers are walking commentaries on their characters too. Rogue is a charming affectionate woman who can't touch. Wolverine heals instantaneously but is always in pain. Storm requires complete control to make her powers work and always walks a razor's edge. I don't consider them elites. The Avengers are packed with elites. They got royalty, billionaire industrialists, military personnel... only Spiderman and Ant-Man are really their working class members. What separates them though from the overall narrative of the X-Men is they create themselves. They created their armored suits, or were experimented on with serums, or were average beings on their planets but God-like on ours. I could be wrong but I've no impression that even characters from other worlds like Gamora or Drax are mutations from their own species. Gamora seems like her planet's version of a Black Widow. The Avengers all fit into the world they were born into and chose to fight for good. I'd argue the X-Men never had the choice. The X-Men can't take off their powers so they're in it until they die or until equity is achieved. They're very different worlds. No Avengers are truly safe after they retire because someone could always come after them, but the difference is someone might come after a retired Captain America because he's Captain America, whereas someone might come after a retired Cyclops because he's a mutant. It's an issue of individuality over identity that distinguishes the targets. I detect more law and order from the Avengers narrative, and I actually think superhero movies today are the new law and order movies. At least I suspect that's a role they fill because they become increasingly institutionalized and an arm of the government. The Justice League too. The Avengers and the Justice League have that more in common with each other than the X-Men because their job that they choose is to punch at chaos and restore things to normal. The Justice League is filled with elites too. Between Captain America, War Machine, Captain Marvel, and the odd Green Lantern, both teams are festooned with law and order. Yeah, the martyrdom complex can get tiresome. I find Magneto's martyrdom less insufferable than Professor X. No one gets to stick around and enjoy the martyr status. Wearing martyrdom as a personality trait is tedious to the nth degree. I agree with you about the X-Men's universe and martyrdom being a tired narrative. I disagree though that there's not much left in the mutants vs humans complex. In a world less racist, supremacist, prejudiced, etc., the mutant/human conflict wouldn't be doomed to continue being relevant. The smartest thing (in my opinion) the musty X-Men movies did was start out in a Holocaust scenario to make sure you knew mutants had this in common. Their existence is attached to no crime. The fears of the majority population don't have to be reasonable or make sense as long as they have the power. That makes them more dangerous than mutants. Everyday is an uphill battle when the system is against you. That's what gets me about the X-Men world. It's hard to see them belonging in the Avengers' world. Sorry for the lengthy post. I could probably never watch an X-Men property again and be happy, but the train of thought it started all those years ago still cooks. That's an interesting connection you made with their powers and personality, never thought about it that way before. Kudos to you I dont think the Avengers are elites apart from Tony Stark and Thor. Cap was a working class guy and so was Bucky in his movie. Natasha obviously doesnt have the best background or history. The Hulk was just a scientist and pretty much became a mutant in all but name. Dont know enough about Hawkeye. Quicksilver and Wanda, have kind of a similar history to Natasha. Edit: Forgot some -Black Panther an elite -Doctor Strange may as well be an elite but more of a top professional in both fields -Spidey and Ant-man like you already said yourself -Captain Marvel somewhat elite
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Post by AQUA CAT! on Mar 11, 2024 19:35:23 GMT 1
I'm unsure I want to see the X-Men in the MCU at all. I've lost interest more/less in the X-Men because I've had my fill. I took to the X-Men like a fish to water when I was young because they were mutants. Everything special about them were powers they could not change. They did a good job, in my opinion, of downplaying the joy of these powers because not all mutants could hide their powers or their appearances. The fact they were born mutants resonates with what I found the most appealing moral of the story. They were born that way. Their powers are most often the parts of them that people fear the most, but they're also what makes them special. The race, eugenics and supremacy motifs are there. When the subject of curing oneself of mutations came along, the story veered towards deeper questions about cures for homosexuality and mutants wrestling with changing themselves even if they wanted to. Therein actually lies my above observation about not being able to escape appearances while other mutants can, thereby passing for human and being privileged to the highest tier of an oppressed class. The X-Men always felt like people to me. I have difficulty imagining them as anything but a team. I think their powers are walking commentaries on their characters too. Rogue is a charming affectionate woman who can't touch. Wolverine heals instantaneously but is always in pain. Storm requires complete control to make her powers work and always walks a razor's edge. I don't consider them elites. The Avengers are packed with elites. They got royalty, billionaire industrialists, military personnel... only Spiderman and Ant-Man are really their working class members. What separates them though from the overall narrative of the X-Men is they create themselves. They created their armored suits, or were experimented on with serums, or were average beings on their planets but God-like on ours. I could be wrong but I've no impression that even characters from other worlds like Gamora or Drax are mutations from their own species. Gamora seems like her planet's version of a Black Widow. The Avengers all fit into the world they were born into and chose to fight for good. I'd argue the X-Men never had the choice. The X-Men can't take off their powers so they're in it until they die or until equity is achieved. They're very different worlds. No Avengers are truly safe after they retire because someone could always come after them, but the difference is someone might come after a retired Captain America because he's Captain America, whereas someone might come after a retired Cyclops because he's a mutant. It's an issue of individuality over identity that distinguishes the targets. I detect more law and order from the Avengers narrative, and I actually think superhero movies today are the new law and order movies. At least I suspect that's a role they fill because they become increasingly institutionalized and an arm of the government. The Justice League too. The Avengers and the Justice League have that more in common with each other than the X-Men because their job that they choose is to punch at chaos and restore things to normal. The Justice League is filled with elites too. Between Captain America, War Machine, Captain Marvel, and the odd Green Lantern, both teams are festooned with law and order. Yeah, the martyrdom complex can get tiresome. I find Magneto's martyrdom less insufferable than Professor X. No one gets to stick around and enjoy the martyr status. Wearing martyrdom as a personality trait is tedious to the nth degree. I agree with you about the X-Men's universe and martyrdom being a tired narrative. I disagree though that there's not much left in the mutants vs humans complex. In a world less racist, supremacist, prejudiced, etc., the mutant/human conflict wouldn't be doomed to continue being relevant. The smartest thing (in my opinion) the musty X-Men movies did was start out in a Holocaust scenario to make sure you knew mutants had this in common. Their existence is attached to no crime. The fears of the majority population don't have to be reasonable or make sense as long as they have the power. That makes them more dangerous than mutants. Everyday is an uphill battle when the system is against you. That's what gets me about the X-Men world. It's hard to see them belonging in the Avengers' world. Sorry for the lengthy post. I could probably never watch an X-Men property again and be happy, but the train of thought it started all those years ago still cooks. That's an interesting connection you made with their powers and personality, never thought about it that way before. Kudos to you I dont think the Avengers are elites apart from Tony Stark and Thor. Cap was a working class guy and so was Bucky in his movie. Natasha obviously doesnt have the best background or history. The Hulk was just a scientist and pretty much became a mutant in all but name. Dont know enough about Hawkeye. Quicksilver and Wanda, have kind of a similar history to Natasha. Edit: Forgot some -Black Panther an elite -Doctor Strange may as well be an elite but more of a top professional in both fields -Spidey and Ant-man like you already said yourself -Captain Marvel somewhat elite It's a tossup in some cases. Captain America is the greatest soldier in history (in MCU lore). I put him in the elite category because he, like Captain Marvel and War Machine, are military personnel. That was my thought process. Black Panther's like Thor. They're both royalty. Doctor Strange imo took to his responsibilities like a fish to water because it fits his character. It seemed to me like he took sorcerer supreme to mean top of his field, which is where I think he sees himself no matter what is field is. It's funny, though. Maturity and training go a long way. I wouldn't argue someone like Spiderman is less powerful than Captain America. I'd argue he's stronger than Falcon and perhaps Bucky, but he's also a kid. Unrefined. I felt while watching Captain America: Winter Soldier that even next to Captain America, Black Widow has a moral flexibility that Captain America does not, which can make her more dangerous in the right circumstances. Hawkeye too. Widow and Hawkeye are the type of elites who would shoot up the ladder of most dangerous people if the Avengers' powers were compromised. Their level of training actually seems possible in the real world. Moral flexibility, in my opinion, has always been the ace in the hole that puts biological humans on close to equal grounds as powered individuals. Lex Luthor and Joker cross lines Superman wouldn't. Not unless he was tricked or mind-controlled. I actually think Wanda is closer to Spiderman than say Iron Man or Captain America because she's also just a kid. Keep in mind I'm guessing based on what I see from the movies and some animated shows. I don't actually read the comics. The X-Men though always struck me as a direct adaptation from the comics so I tend to blur them when I'm speaking. Honestly, for the most part, I just find it fun to speculate. I don't actually know what I'm talking about. I'm more like a recreational guesser.
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Post by ])-Kyle "Wild Child" Gibney-([ on Mar 11, 2024 20:34:50 GMT 1
That's an interesting connection you made with their powers and personality, never thought about it that way before. Kudos to you I dont think the Avengers are elites apart from Tony Stark and Thor. Cap was a working class guy and so was Bucky in his movie. Natasha obviously doesnt have the best background or history. The Hulk was just a scientist and pretty much became a mutant in all but name. Dont know enough about Hawkeye. Quicksilver and Wanda, have kind of a similar history to Natasha. Edit: Forgot some -Black Panther an elite -Doctor Strange may as well be an elite but more of a top professional in both fields -Spidey and Ant-man like you already said yourself -Captain Marvel somewhat elite It's a tossup in some cases. Captain America is the greatest soldier in history (in MCU lore). I put him in the elite category because he, like Captain Marvel and War Machine, are military personnel. That was my thought process. Black Panther's like Thor. They're both royalty. Doctor Strange imo took to his responsibilities like a fish to water because it fits his character. It seemed to me like he took sorcerer supreme to mean top of his field, which is where I think he sees himself no matter what is field is. It's funny, though. Maturity and training go a long way. I wouldn't argue someone like Spiderman is less powerful than Captain America. I'd argue he's stronger than Falcon and perhaps Bucky, but he's also a kid. Unrefined. I felt while watching Captain America: Winter Soldier that even next to Captain America, Black Widow has a moral flexibility that Captain America does not, which can make her more dangerous in the right circumstances. Hawkeye too. Widow and Hawkeye are the type of elites who would shoot up the ladder of most dangerous people if the Avengers' powers were compromised. Their level of training actually seems possible in the real world. Moral flexibility, in my opinion, has always been the ace in the hole that puts biological humans on close to equal grounds as powered individuals. Lex Luthor and Joker cross lines Superman wouldn't. Not unless he was tricked or mind-controlled. I actually think Wanda is closer to Spiderman than say Iron Man or Captain America because she's also just a kid. Keep in mind I'm guessing based on what I see from the movies and some animated shows. I don't actually read the comics. The X-Men though always struck me as a direct adaptation from the comics so I tend to blur them when I'm speaking. Honestly, for the most part, I just find it fun to speculate. I don't actually know what I'm talking about. I'm more like a recreational guesser. Yeah it's interesting with Spider-Man and how they approached him in the MCU. If he was an adult and as trained and experienced as the Avengers, he could probably take them all and beat them. Hulk and Thor might be a little trickier though and would have to come up with something creative but we all know how Spidey has a scientific mind too. His Spidey sense is also something that should not be overlooked, that with his abilities and mind makes him very formidable. Yeah, but not if you're going up against someone like Magneto, Apocalypse, Zod, Brainiac, Doctor Doom, Mister Sinister etc All Ive said about my opinion on the elites comes straight from the mcu universe. However, Im not sure how much you have consumed in regards to its content. Further, I would like to mention that even among the X-men there are some elites with the way you describe them. Professor X is one. Angel is another (although appeared briefly in the movies). So is Wolverine. Jean Grey is just scary with the Phoenix Force
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Post by AQUA CAT! on Mar 11, 2024 21:57:26 GMT 1
It's a tossup in some cases. Captain America is the greatest soldier in history (in MCU lore). I put him in the elite category because he, like Captain Marvel and War Machine, are military personnel. That was my thought process. Black Panther's like Thor. They're both royalty. Doctor Strange imo took to his responsibilities like a fish to water because it fits his character. It seemed to me like he took sorcerer supreme to mean top of his field, which is where I think he sees himself no matter what is field is. It's funny, though. Maturity and training go a long way. I wouldn't argue someone like Spiderman is less powerful than Captain America. I'd argue he's stronger than Falcon and perhaps Bucky, but he's also a kid. Unrefined. I felt while watching Captain America: Winter Soldier that even next to Captain America, Black Widow has a moral flexibility that Captain America does not, which can make her more dangerous in the right circumstances. Hawkeye too. Widow and Hawkeye are the type of elites who would shoot up the ladder of most dangerous people if the Avengers' powers were compromised. Their level of training actually seems possible in the real world. Moral flexibility, in my opinion, has always been the ace in the hole that puts biological humans on close to equal grounds as powered individuals. Lex Luthor and Joker cross lines Superman wouldn't. Not unless he was tricked or mind-controlled. I actually think Wanda is closer to Spiderman than say Iron Man or Captain America because she's also just a kid. Keep in mind I'm guessing based on what I see from the movies and some animated shows. I don't actually read the comics. The X-Men though always struck me as a direct adaptation from the comics so I tend to blur them when I'm speaking. Honestly, for the most part, I just find it fun to speculate. I don't actually know what I'm talking about. I'm more like a recreational guesser. Yeah it's interesting with Spider-Man and how they approached him in the MCU. If he was an adult and as trained and experienced as the Avengers, he could probably take them all and beat them. Hulk and Thor might be a little trickier though and would have to come up with something creative but we all know how Spidey has a scientific mind too. His Spidey sense is also something that should not be overlooked, that with his abilities and mind makes him very formidable. Yeah, but not if you're going up against someone like Magneto, Apocalypse, Zod, Brainiac, Doctor Doom, Mister Sinister etc All Ive said about my opinion on the elites comes straight from the mcu universe. However, Im not sure how much you have consumed in regards to its content. Further, I would like to mention that even among the X-men there are some elites with the way you describe them. Professor X is one. Angel is another (although appeared briefly in the movies). So is Wolverine. Jean Grey is just scary with the Phoenix Force True say. It's totally worth it too that the same relationship between characters and their powers is probably there in the MCU too. It stood out to me in the X-Men universe first because of Beast. I always liked watching him recite poetry and say the smartest things while looking like a giant blue Bigfoot. I think the same relationship is there in the MCU though. I especially liked Iron Man 3 because I thought Stark's mental state was the same as the condition of his suit. They seemed linked in the movie, and I think the softest insides require the hardest shells for protection. It was remarked in Age of Ultron that Stark's solution was to put a suit of armor around the world to protect it. I think that's him projecting what's safe for him is what's safe for the world. Likewise, I've always liked the Hulk because I can relate to wanting to let go. I just finished writing a paper on Albert Einstein and he was famous for listening to outside perspectives and non-experts because he considered the opinions of experts too biased with burden. I watched the Ang Lee Hulk movie for the first time a few years ago. I know I'm late. What got me though is how smart Bruce Banner is with his Ph D's, but also how stupid he is that he can't see the love of his life in front of him. Especially when she's played by Jennifer Connolly. But what stuck with me was when he was Hulk, he saw nothing but Betty. She was his whole line of sight. His IQ had to drop by 100 points for him to see what really matters. Fast forward to Avengers and I love how he compared himself to a raw nerve. He's always exposed. He has no choice but to live the way Stark refuses to. Yeah I reckon Professor X is an elite. I always thought it was a disabilities-friendly message to have arguably the most powerful mutant on Earth in a chair. I loved the metaphor in Logan that his powers are like a weapon of mass destruction when left unchecked. Jean Grey too is a total boss. The only way to defeat her at that level is be Cyclops and pray for sympathy.
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Post by Merv on Mar 12, 2024 18:44:25 GMT 1
Yeah it's interesting with Spider-Man and how they approached him in the MCU. If he was an adult and as trained and experienced as the Avengers, he could probably take them all and beat them. Hulk and Thor might be a little trickier though and would have to come up with something creative but we all know how Spidey has a scientific mind too. His Spidey sense is also something that should not be overlooked, that with his abilities and mind makes him very formidable. Yeah, but not if you're going up against someone like Magneto, Apocalypse, Zod, Brainiac, Doctor Doom, Mister Sinister etc All Ive said about my opinion on the elites comes straight from the mcu universe. However, Im not sure how much you have consumed in regards to its content. Further, I would like to mention that even among the X-men there are some elites with the way you describe them. Professor X is one. Angel is another (although appeared briefly in the movies). So is Wolverine. Jean Grey is just scary with the Phoenix Force True say. It's totally worth it too that the same relationship between characters and their powers is probably there in the MCU too. It stood out to me in the X-Men universe first because of Beast. I always liked watching him recite poetry and say the smartest things while looking like a giant blue Bigfoot. I think the same relationship is there in the MCU though. I especially liked Iron Man 3 because I thought Stark's mental state was the same as the condition of his suit. They seemed linked in the movie, and I think the softest insides require the hardest shells for protection. It was remarked in Age of Ultron that Stark's solution was to put a suit of armor around the world to protect it. I think that's him projecting what's safe for him is what's safe for the world. Likewise, I've always liked the Hulk because I can relate to wanting to let go. I just finished writing a paper on Albert Einstein and he was famous for listening to outside perspectives and non-experts because he considered the opinions of experts too biased with burden. I watched the Ang Lee Hulk movie for the first time a few years ago. I know I'm late. What got me though is how smart Bruce Banner is with his Ph D's, but also how stupid he is that he can't see the love of his life in front of him. Especially when she's played by Jennifer Connolly. But what stuck with me was when he was Hulk, he saw nothing but Betty. She was his whole line of sight. His IQ had to drop by 100 points for him to see what really matters. Fast forward to Avengers and I love how he compared himself to a raw nerve. He's always exposed. He has no choice but to live the way Stark refuses to. Yeah I reckon Professor X is an elite. I always thought it was a disabilities-friendly message to have arguably the most powerful mutant on Earth in a chair. I loved the metaphor in Logan that his powers are like a weapon of mass destruction when left unchecked. Jean Grey too is a total boss. The only way to defeat her at that level is be Cyclops and pray for sympathy. On top of Xavier’s powers tho several storylines over the years have really highlighted his pretentiousness or flat out abuse of power. A lot of XMen may feel back-doored into the cause due to their mutation but Xavier has given off a lot more of a middle aged housewife taking up some other groups cause over the past few decades. Just the vibe, I know he’s officially a mutant and all. That’s probably more a reflection of our world growing less patient with authority figures, particularly ones who may feel all talk and less substance, when I take a step back tho. Even if that doesn’t accurately reflect Xavier’s history.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Mar 12, 2024 19:37:10 GMT 1
True say. It's totally worth it too that the same relationship between characters and their powers is probably there in the MCU too. It stood out to me in the X-Men universe first because of Beast. I always liked watching him recite poetry and say the smartest things while looking like a giant blue Bigfoot. I think the same relationship is there in the MCU though. I especially liked Iron Man 3 because I thought Stark's mental state was the same as the condition of his suit. They seemed linked in the movie, and I think the softest insides require the hardest shells for protection. It was remarked in Age of Ultron that Stark's solution was to put a suit of armor around the world to protect it. I think that's him projecting what's safe for him is what's safe for the world. Likewise, I've always liked the Hulk because I can relate to wanting to let go. I just finished writing a paper on Albert Einstein and he was famous for listening to outside perspectives and non-experts because he considered the opinions of experts too biased with burden. I watched the Ang Lee Hulk movie for the first time a few years ago. I know I'm late. What got me though is how smart Bruce Banner is with his Ph D's, but also how stupid he is that he can't see the love of his life in front of him. Especially when she's played by Jennifer Connolly. But what stuck with me was when he was Hulk, he saw nothing but Betty. She was his whole line of sight. His IQ had to drop by 100 points for him to see what really matters. Fast forward to Avengers and I love how he compared himself to a raw nerve. He's always exposed. He has no choice but to live the way Stark refuses to. Yeah I reckon Professor X is an elite. I always thought it was a disabilities-friendly message to have arguably the most powerful mutant on Earth in a chair. I loved the metaphor in Logan that his powers are like a weapon of mass destruction when left unchecked. Jean Grey too is a total boss. The only way to defeat her at that level is be Cyclops and pray for sympathy. On top of Xavier’s powers tho several storylines over the years have really highlighted his pretentiousness or flat out abuse of power. A lot of XMen may feel back-doored into the cause due to their mutation but Xavier has given off a lot more of a middle aged housewife taking up some other groups cause over the past few decades. Just the vibe, I know he’s officially a mutant and all. That’s probably more a reflection of our world growing less patient with authority figures, particularly ones who may feel all talk and less substance, when I take a step back tho. Even if that doesn’t accurately reflect Xavier’s history. That's precisely why the Fantastic Four doesn't and won't play as well as some might think in this latest planned live-action iteration. I'd love to explore Xavier in his younger years—maybe as a teenager moving into adulthood. That era has a lot of potential because not a whole lot is known about it. I'd love to pair him with another skilled telepath who thinks they are the end-all-be-all of the psionic arts until they meet the prime mover. There's an argument for a young Xavier movie populated only with machiavellian telepaths and telekinetics. I would take some cues from Scanners.
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Post by AQUA CAT! on Mar 13, 2024 23:52:40 GMT 1
On top of Xavier’s powers tho several storylines over the years have really highlighted his pretentiousness or flat out abuse of power. A lot of XMen may feel back-doored into the cause due to their mutation but Xavier has given off a lot more of a middle aged housewife taking up some other groups cause over the past few decades. Just the vibe, I know he’s officially a mutant and all. That’s probably more a reflection of our world growing less patient with authority figures, particularly ones who may feel all talk and less substance, when I take a step back tho. Even if that doesn’t accurately reflect Xavier’s history. That's precisely why the Fantastic Four doesn't and won't play as well as some might think in this latest planned live-action iteration. I'd love to explore Xavier in his younger years—maybe as a teenager moving into adulthood. That era has a lot of potential because not a whole lot is known about it. I'd love to pair him with another skilled telepath who thinks they are the end-all-be-all of the psionic arts until they meet the prime mover. There's an argument for a young Xavier movie populated only with machiavellian telepaths and telekinetics. I would take some cues from Scanners. I'm always down for taking cues from Scanners. Merv, Lord Death Man, To build off the idea of growing impatience with authority figures, I can see this playing out through Xavier. His plea for compassion and tolerance is one-dimensional, as silly as that may sound consider how important a dimension it is. I can see a more modern Xavier exasperated with reality to the point of being extra pushy with his views, perhaps to the point where he is nudging people toward his conclusions. Perhaps a breaking point for Xavier, and a reflection of the state and shape of social movement leaders today, is the need to reaffirm and recycle their value to newcomers to the point where it becomes intrusive of their right to draw their own conclusions.
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Post by ])-Kyle "Wild Child" Gibney-([ on Mar 14, 2024 11:23:15 GMT 1
Yeah it's interesting with Spider-Man and how they approached him in the MCU. If he was an adult and as trained and experienced as the Avengers, he could probably take them all and beat them. Hulk and Thor might be a little trickier though and would have to come up with something creative but we all know how Spidey has a scientific mind too. His Spidey sense is also something that should not be overlooked, that with his abilities and mind makes him very formidable. Yeah, but not if you're going up against someone like Magneto, Apocalypse, Zod, Brainiac, Doctor Doom, Mister Sinister etc All Ive said about my opinion on the elites comes straight from the mcu universe. However, Im not sure how much you have consumed in regards to its content. Further, I would like to mention that even among the X-men there are some elites with the way you describe them. Professor X is one. Angel is another (although appeared briefly in the movies). So is Wolverine. Jean Grey is just scary with the Phoenix Force True say. It's totally worth it too that the same relationship between characters and their powers is probably there in the MCU too. It stood out to me in the X-Men universe first because of Beast. I always liked watching him recite poetry and say the smartest things while looking like a giant blue Bigfoot. I think the same relationship is there in the MCU though. I especially liked Iron Man 3 because I thought Stark's mental state was the same as the condition of his suit. They seemed linked in the movie, and I think the softest insides require the hardest shells for protection. It was remarked in Age of Ultron that Stark's solution was to put a suit of armor around the world to protect it. I think that's him projecting what's safe for him is what's safe for the world. Likewise, I've always liked the Hulk because I can relate to wanting to let go. I just finished writing a paper on Albert Einstein and he was famous for listening to outside perspectives and non-experts because he considered the opinions of experts too biased with burden. I watched the Ang Lee Hulk movie for the first time a few years ago. I know I'm late. What got me though is how smart Bruce Banner is with his Ph D's, but also how stupid he is that he can't see the love of his life in front of him. Especially when she's played by Jennifer Connolly. But what stuck with me was when he was Hulk, he saw nothing but Betty. She was his whole line of sight. His IQ had to drop by 100 points for him to see what really matters. Fast forward to Avengers and I love how he compared himself to a raw nerve. He's always exposed. He has no choice but to live the way Stark refuses to. Yeah I reckon Professor X is an elite. I always thought it was a disabilities-friendly message to have arguably the most powerful mutant on Earth in a chair. I loved the metaphor in Logan that his powers are like a weapon of mass destruction when left unchecked. Jean Grey too is a total boss. The only way to defeat her at that level is be Cyclops and pray for sympathy. Makes sense to me re Einstein. I watched a youtube segment where Eric Weinstein (not sure if you're familiar with him) said that some of the theories are so good in physics that they become a straitjacket and that you cant really come up with anything outside of the framework to solve a particular problem. Something along those lines anyway. Also sometime consensus can be a hindrance rather than a benefit for new ideas. I need to see that Hulk film again. It has been literally ages since Ive seen it lol. Ha Jennifer Connolly, far prettier in Dark City but also naturally younger Yeah I think we can all relate to Hulk on some level. We've all had those days where everything just goes wrong or our perception of it anyway at the time and you just want to let go, consequences be damned. To be a viking and throw an axe in someone's face. The bloodthirstiness of anger and just let go. You are at my PERIL. Fuck you world hahaha
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Post by ])-Kyle "Wild Child" Gibney-([ on Mar 14, 2024 11:30:23 GMT 1
True say. It's totally worth it too that the same relationship between characters and their powers is probably there in the MCU too. It stood out to me in the X-Men universe first because of Beast. I always liked watching him recite poetry and say the smartest things while looking like a giant blue Bigfoot. I think the same relationship is there in the MCU though. I especially liked Iron Man 3 because I thought Stark's mental state was the same as the condition of his suit. They seemed linked in the movie, and I think the softest insides require the hardest shells for protection. It was remarked in Age of Ultron that Stark's solution was to put a suit of armor around the world to protect it. I think that's him projecting what's safe for him is what's safe for the world. Likewise, I've always liked the Hulk because I can relate to wanting to let go. I just finished writing a paper on Albert Einstein and he was famous for listening to outside perspectives and non-experts because he considered the opinions of experts too biased with burden. I watched the Ang Lee Hulk movie for the first time a few years ago. I know I'm late. What got me though is how smart Bruce Banner is with his Ph D's, but also how stupid he is that he can't see the love of his life in front of him. Especially when she's played by Jennifer Connolly. But what stuck with me was when he was Hulk, he saw nothing but Betty. She was his whole line of sight. His IQ had to drop by 100 points for him to see what really matters. Fast forward to Avengers and I love how he compared himself to a raw nerve. He's always exposed. He has no choice but to live the way Stark refuses to. Yeah I reckon Professor X is an elite. I always thought it was a disabilities-friendly message to have arguably the most powerful mutant on Earth in a chair. I loved the metaphor in Logan that his powers are like a weapon of mass destruction when left unchecked. Jean Grey too is a total boss. The only way to defeat her at that level is be Cyclops and pray for sympathy. On top of Xavier’s powers tho several storylines over the years have really highlighted his pretentiousness or flat out abuse of power. A lot of XMen may feel back-doored into the cause due to their mutation but Xavier has given off a lot more of a middle aged housewife taking up some other groups cause over the past few decades. Just the vibe, I know he’s officially a mutant and all. That’s probably more a reflection of our world growing less patient with authority figures, particularly ones who may feel all talk and less substance, when I take a step back tho. Even if that doesn’t accurately reflect Xavier’s history. Oh, he has definitely crossed the line at times, in a way playing God. In one of the stories if I remember correctly, Wolverine goes ballistic over tampering with his mind
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Post by ])-Kyle "Wild Child" Gibney-([ on Mar 14, 2024 11:37:58 GMT 1
On top of Xavier’s powers tho several storylines over the years have really highlighted his pretentiousness or flat out abuse of power. A lot of XMen may feel back-doored into the cause due to their mutation but Xavier has given off a lot more of a middle aged housewife taking up some other groups cause over the past few decades. Just the vibe, I know he’s officially a mutant and all. That’s probably more a reflection of our world growing less patient with authority figures, particularly ones who may feel all talk and less substance, when I take a step back tho. Even if that doesn’t accurately reflect Xavier’s history. That's precisely why the Fantastic Four doesn't and won't play as well as some might think in this latest planned live-action iteration. I'd love to explore Xavier in his younger years—maybe as a teenager moving into adulthood. That era has a lot of potential because not a whole lot is known about it. I'd love to pair him with another skilled telepath who thinks they are the end-all-be-all of the psionic arts until they meet the prime mover. There's an argument for a young Xavier movie populated only with machiavellian telepaths and telekinetics. I would take some cues from Scanners. Yeah it's really hard to say with F4, also considering the MCU's track record of late..but Im optimistic about the movie Personally, I still wana see that previously planned Gambit movie with Tatum. That had a great plot
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Post by Lord Death Man on Mar 14, 2024 15:39:25 GMT 1
That's precisely why the Fantastic Four doesn't and won't play as well as some might think in this latest planned live-action iteration. I'd love to explore Xavier in his younger years—maybe as a teenager moving into adulthood. That era has a lot of potential because not a whole lot is known about it. I'd love to pair him with another skilled telepath who thinks they are the end-all-be-all of the psionic arts until they meet the prime mover. There's an argument for a young Xavier movie populated only with machiavellian telepaths and telekinetics. I would take some cues from Scanners. Yeah it's really hard to say with F4, also considering the MCU's track record of late..but Im optimistic about the movie Personally, I still wana see that previously planned Gambit movie with Tatum. That had a great plot I think, it would take a wildly new and different take on the FF to overcome the past iterations and to sell fans on yet another bickering superhero team lead by an MCU science bro. What was the plot to the Gambit movie? From what I've heard it was a Mr. and Mrs. Smith-themed rom-com.
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