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Post by ArArArchStanton on Feb 4, 2023 4:26:30 GMT 1
Its got absolutely nothing to do with it being female led Chalice, and it’s absurd for you to even suggest so. I’ve insulted Zach’s films for far longer, suicide squad, and others so you’re wrong. You’re dead wrong and it is extremely low class for you to try to play the sexism card with me. And please notice that I hold Black Widow as perhaps the best entry of phase 4. The only thing odd here is your defensiveness. I insulted WW on its merits and have done so in detail. I don’t give a damn how successful it was. I fully accept how successful it was, but it’s totally irrelevant. The point is that I’m not afraid to be in the minority opinion so long as I’m honest about what I see, and what I saw was the competence to make the disaster that’s unfolded, just like I did with Zach when I saw MOS. Did I make a lucky guess twice or do I kind of maybe know a little about what I’m talking about? Because it’s female led my ass. Sexism is a frequent and easy criticism to levy against those who are critical of the first Wonder Woman film. Wonder Woman gets a lot of praise for what it is not, more so than what it is. It was not cut to the point of incoherence, it isn't a glorified music video, and, most importantly, it has a clear and almost compelling character arc. It is not a remake, a reboot, or a blatant cash grab. And it has color grading in the visual spectrum of light instead of looking like someone threw cough syrup all over the screen. It is also resolutely optimistic - everything that most of its sister films in the DCEU is not. Unfortunately, you don't merit a parade down 5th avenue for simply doing what a superhero film is supposed to do. It's a good film, but it's not Citizen Superhero. All of that is true. I just would add that it has a pinch of “ehhhhh I don‘t actually know what I’m doing” spice. If these were a series of auditions to be hired for a future “real” project, I would not have entrusted whoever submitted this. I would have expected them to fail.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Feb 4, 2023 4:45:46 GMT 1
Sexism is a frequent and easy criticism to levy against those who are critical of the first Wonder Woman film. Wonder Woman gets a lot of praise for what it is not, more so than what it is. It was not cut to the point of incoherence, it isn't a glorified music video, and, most importantly, it has a clear and almost compelling character arc. It is not a remake, a reboot, or a blatant cash grab. And it has color grading in the visual spectrum of light instead of looking like someone threw cough syrup all over the screen. It is also resolutely optimistic - everything that most of its sister films in the DCEU is not. Unfortunately, you don't merit a parade down 5th avenue for simply doing what a superhero film is supposed to do. It's a good film, but it's not Citizen Superhero. All of that is true. I just would add that it has a pinch of “ehhhhh I don‘t actually know what I’m doing” spice. If these were a series of auditions to be hired for a future “real” project, I would not have entrusted whoever submitted this. I would have expected them to fail. I'm not sure that I fully agree, but I do think your observations warrant some consideration. I will say this with certainty, the fanboy penchant for deifying creators after a successful freshman victory in the genre sank Patty Jenkins faster than the Titanic. I see Reeves on a similar trajectory - we'll see. The expectations for a second film were high, and she swang for the fences, but ultimately failed to deliver. She was fated to underperform.
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Post by Chalice_Of_Evil on Feb 4, 2023 8:45:04 GMT 1
The first Wonder Woman film was very successful, whether you're willing to accept it or not. While the sequel wasn't successful...it's hardly the first comic book movie where this has been the case. You hatred for the Wonder Woman films seems very OTT. I'd be amused by it...except I find it more odd that you concentrate a large percentage of hatred towards this one female-led DC superhero film franchise. Its got absolutely nothing to do with it being female led Chalice, and it’s absurd for you to even suggest so. I’ve insulted Zach’s films for far longer, suicide squad, and others so you’re wrong. You’re dead wrong and it is extremely low class for you to try to play the sexism card with me. And please notice that I hold Black Widow as perhaps the best entry of phase 4. The only thing odd here is you’re defensiveness. I insulted WW on its merits and have done so in detail. I don’t give a damn how successful it was. I fully accept how successful it was, but it’s totally irrelevant. The point is that I’m not afraid to be in the minority opinion so long as I’m honest about what I see, and what I saw was the competence to make the disaster that’s unfolded, just like I did with Zach when I saw MOS. Did I make a lucky guess twice or do I kind of maybe know a little about what I’m talking about? Because it’s female led my ass. So I'm 'low' now? Because I mentioned that it's a female-led superhero movie (which it is) and that you seem to have a lot of hatred for it (which this constant negativity towards it would seem to indicate)? Did I ever actually say you hated it because it's female-led? No, I said you direct a lot of hatred towards this female-led superhero movie, but I never said you don't direct hatred towards male-led superhero movies. It's fine to not like something, but the constant never-ending negativity you post in relation to the first big-screen live-action version of the Wonder Woman character seems to have gone well-past dislike. You seem determined to nit pick every little miniscule detail about the film and that is you basis for why you think it's 'terrible' or whatever words you've used to describe it. You know, someone could go into just as much nitpicky detail about all the MCU movies simply because they don't like them. Seems to me when people like something, they'll forgive it for things that in a movie they dislike they would pick apart. I dislike various MCU properties (Iron Man, GotG, Spider-Man, etc), but do I go into every thread for those movies to repeat over and over how I hate them and why? No. You know why? Because I know there's people on here who *like* them and I find no joy in constantly repeating how/why I hate those 'popular' movies as what point does it serve? I'll say I don't like something, state why, and then leave it. But it's appeared to me for some time now that Wonder Woman can't be discussed on here without you saying yet again why you think it's terrible. How about not talking about Wonder Woman (which you clearly dislike) for a while and focusing on all those MCU films you *do* like? It'd be nice to have some discussion of the Wonder Woman character and films in a thread without them being hated on constantly. Since you've already formed your opinion on me, clearly nothingg I say will change your mind. Continue think whatever you want of me. I honestly don't care. I've had people hate me online for no good reason many times before, so this is nothing new. Its got absolutely nothing to do with it being female led Chalice, and it’s absurd for you to even suggest so. I’ve insulted Zach’s films for far longer, suicide squad, and others so you’re wrong. You’re dead wrong and it is extremely low class for you to try to play the sexism card with me. And please notice that I hold Black Widow as perhaps the best entry of phase 4. The only thing odd here is you’re defensiveness. I insulted WW on its merits and have done so in detail. I don’t give a damn how successful it was. I fully accept how successful it was, but it’s totally irrelevant. The point is that I’m not afraid to be in the minority opinion so long as I’m honest about what I see, and what I saw was the competence to make the disaster that’s unfolded, just like I did with Zach when I saw MOS. Did I make a lucky guess twice or do I kind of maybe know a little about what I’m talking about? Because it’s female led my ass. Sexism is a frequent and easy criticism to levy against those who are critical of the first Wonder Woman film. Wonder Woman gets a lot of praise for what it is not, more so than what it is. It was not cut to the point of incoherence, it isn't a glorified music video, and, most importantly, it has a clear and almost compelling character arc. It is not a remake, a reboot, or a blatant cash grab. And it has color grading in the visual spectrum of light instead of looking like someone threw cough syrup all over the screen. It is also resolutely optimistic - everything that most of its sister films in the DCEU from the era is not. Unfortunately, you don't merit a parade down 5th avenue for simply doing what a superhero film is supposed to do. It's a good film, but it's not Citizen Superhero. It's also a very real criticism that actually is truthful regarding certain people. Not everyone who criticises Wonder Woman (or any female-led superhero movies) is sexist. But to think that NO ONE who cricises Wonder Woman is sexist is just as much a generalisation/assumption. You tend to present your opinions as 'facts' when they are actually your opinions. Saying Wonder Woman is praised more for what it's not than what it is is an example of this. You can think that, no one's saying you can't, but it's not a fact. Some people just really enjoyed this first big-screen live-action version of the character - and NOT because it 'didn't suck', but because they genuinely thought it was good. I don't think anyone has called it Citizen Superhero. These days people tend to over-praise things or over-hate them and there's no middle ground. I think the first Wonder Woman movie is a really good superhero origin film. Do I think it's the best? No, but for every person who *does* think it's 'the best', there's those who think it's 'the worst' - and neither is 'right'. Since there seems gradually be more people on here lowkey insulting me, I think I'll just make like Biz did and stay away. I don't need this shit. I've got r/l family stuff going on, I'm barely hanging on and now I have people on this site (which I thought was a sanctuary from the types on IMDB 2 who would attack people for differences of opinion) coming at me with accusations based on conclusions they've jumped to. Go ahead, hate me all you want, I couldn't care less.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Feb 4, 2023 12:12:44 GMT 1
Then there was no reason to bring up that it’s female led, because the immediate implication is that my issues with it are related to it being female led. That’s wrong, it’s slander, and you owe me an apology.
And it’s not that I hate it. It’s that I saw it coming plain as day and yeah it’s funny as hell to watch a franchise do this to itself twice. It’s like watching the fandom all working at a rope factory together and the studio is outside tying the longest noose in the world to hang themselves with. I’m low key hoping Patty takes this to the next level and ends it right by producing her rejected script with another studio, swapping in Xena Warrior Princess instead, and then that’s a disaster too. I’d be over at Maximura’s house having a great time killing a keg watching that one.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Feb 4, 2023 18:42:14 GMT 1
Its got absolutely nothing to do with it being female led Chalice, and it’s absurd for you to even suggest so. I’ve insulted Zach’s films for far longer, suicide squad, and others so you’re wrong. You’re dead wrong and it is extremely low class for you to try to play the sexism card with me. And please notice that I hold Black Widow as perhaps the best entry of phase 4. The only thing odd here is you’re defensiveness. I insulted WW on its merits and have done so in detail. I don’t give a damn how successful it was. I fully accept how successful it was, but it’s totally irrelevant. The point is that I’m not afraid to be in the minority opinion so long as I’m honest about what I see, and what I saw was the competence to make the disaster that’s unfolded, just like I did with Zach when I saw MOS. Did I make a lucky guess twice or do I kind of maybe know a little about what I’m talking about? Because it’s female led my ass. So I'm 'low' now? Because I mentioned that it's a female-led superhero movie (which it is) and that you seem to have a lot of hatred for it (which this constant negativity towards it would seem to indicate)? Did I ever actually say you hated it because it's female-led? No, I said you direct a lot of hatred towards this female-led superhero movie, but I never said you don't direct hatred towards male-led superhero movies. It's fine to not like something, but the constant never-ending negativity you post in relation to the first big-screen live-action version of the Wonder Woman character seems to have gone well-past dislike. You seem determined to nit pick every little miniscule detail about the film and that is you basis for why you think it's 'terrible' or whatever words you've used to describe it. You know, someone could go into just as much nitpicky detail about all the MCU movies simply because they don't like them. Seems to me when people like something, they'll forgive it for things that in a movie they dislike they would pick apart. I dislike various MCU properties (Iron Man, GotG, Spider-Man, etc), but do I go into every thread for those movies to repeat over and over how I hate them and why? No. You know why? Because I know there's people on here who *like* them and I find no joy in constantly repeating how/why I hate those 'popular' movies as what point does it serve? I'll say I don't like something, state why, and then leave it. But it's appeared to me for some time now that Wonder Woman can't be discussed on here without you saying yet again why you think it's terrible. How about not talking about Wonder Woman (which you clearly dislike) for a while and focusing on all those MCU films you *do* like? It'd be nice to have some discussion of the Wonder Woman character and films in a thread without them being hated on constantly. Since you've already formed your opinion on me, clearly nothingg I say will change your mind. Continue think whatever you want of me. I honestly don't care. I've had people hate me online for no good reason many times before, so this is nothing new. Sexism is a frequent and easy criticism to levy against those who are critical of the first Wonder Woman film. Wonder Woman gets a lot of praise for what it is not, more so than what it is. It was not cut to the point of incoherence, it isn't a glorified music video, and, most importantly, it has a clear and almost compelling character arc. It is not a remake, a reboot, or a blatant cash grab. And it has color grading in the visual spectrum of light instead of looking like someone threw cough syrup all over the screen. It is also resolutely optimistic - everything that most of its sister films in the DCEU from the era is not. Unfortunately, you don't merit a parade down 5th avenue for simply doing what a superhero film is supposed to do. It's a good film, but it's not Citizen Superhero. It's also a very real criticism that actually is truthful regarding certain people. Not everyone who criticises Wonder Woman (or any female-led superhero movies) is sexist. But to think that NO ONE who cricises Wonder Woman is sexist is just as much a generalisation/assumption. You tend to present your opinions as 'facts' when they are actually your opinions. Saying Wonder Woman is praised more for what it's not than what it is is an example of this. You can think that, no one's saying you can't, but it's not a fact. Some people just really enjoyed this first big-screen live-action version of the character - and NOT because it 'didn't suck', but because they genuinely thought it was good. I don't think anyone has called it Citizen Superhero. These days people tend to over-praise things or over-hate them and there's no middle ground. I think the first Wonder Woman movie is a really good superhero origin film. Do I think it's the best? No, but for every person who *does* think it's 'the best', there's those who think it's 'the worst' - and neither is 'right'. Since there seems gradually be more people on here lowkey insulting me, I think I'll just make like Biz did and stay away. I don't need this shit. I've got r/l family stuff going on, I'm barely hanging on and now I have people on this site (which I thought was a sanctuary from the types on IMDB 2 who would attack people for differences of opinion) coming at me with accusations based on conclusions they've jumped to. Go ahead, hate me all you want, I couldn't care less. A Death Man post always represents the views and opinions of Lord Death Man and no one else. I always welcome debate, and I respect constructive criticism. Nobody hates you, least of all me. I'm not here to spread negativity because that doesn't interest me. If you disagree with me, it's easy enough to present your case or put me on ignore. A small contingent of posters on Sakaar doesn't care for the Wonder Woman franchise. Outside of some good-natured ribbing, I believe we've been fair in our criticism. It has nothing to do with sexism or tribalism. If we seem too prolific in our discussion, it's only because the situation is multifaceted and teeming with discussion topics. You shouldn't take our opinions to heart. Instead, try seeking out others who agree with you as an antidote. You're a good poster, and we'll see you when you return.
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Post by AQUA KEN! on Feb 4, 2023 19:55:30 GMT 1
I actually found people's reaction to the announcement more interesting than the actual announcement itself.
Apparently people expected this to be similar to the Marvel format where we get a new Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Aquaman, Green Lantern, Green Arrow and Justice League movie.
I honestly don't mind the lineup, I just wish it wasn't a lot of streaming shows.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2023 22:00:01 GMT 1
I actually found people's reaction to the announcement more interesting than the actual announcement itself. Apparently people expected this to be similar to the Marvel format where we get a new Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Aquaman, Green Lantern, Green Arrow and Justice League movie. I honestly don't mind the lineup, I just wish it wasn't a lot of streaming shows. I found it quite surprising that the Green Lanterns are stuck on tv. I know the multi-platform model is what studios are going all in on, but Green Lantern is one of the biggest DC properties. Really thought a Jon Stewart GL movie would be an obvious choice for their Phase One slate.
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Post by Merv on Feb 4, 2023 22:04:41 GMT 1
I actually found people's reaction to the announcement more interesting than the actual announcement itself. Apparently people expected this to be similar to the Marvel format where we get a new Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Aquaman, Green Lantern, Green Arrow and Justice League movie. I honestly don't mind the lineup, I just wish it wasn't a lot of streaming shows. I found it quite surprising that the Green Lanterns are stuck on tv. I know the multi-platform model is what studios are going all in on, but Green Lantern is one of the biggest DC properties. Really thought a Jon Stewart GL movie would be an obvious choice for their Phase One slate. That’s the one that I’m simultaneously excited about but also the most nervous that they’ll screw it up. Largely due to the ‘terrestrial’ comment, implying that the GL show is going to be Earth based and an Earth problem. It’s ok to start that way but if you set that as the standard for GL content moving forward then you’re really hamstringing the lore and chopping off a ton of potential with the characters. The Green Lanterns are a space police force…without space I might as well be watching Cops.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2023 3:04:12 GMT 1
I found it quite surprising that the Green Lanterns are stuck on tv. I know the multi-platform model is what studios are going all in on, but Green Lantern is one of the biggest DC properties. Really thought a Jon Stewart GL movie would be an obvious choice for their Phase One slate. That’s the one that I’m simultaneously excited about but also the most nervous that they’ll screw it up. Largely due to the ‘terrestrial’ comment, implying that the GL show is going to be Earth based and an Earth problem. It’s ok to start that way but if you set that as the standard for GL content moving forward then you’re really hamstringing the lore and chopping off a ton of potential with the characters. The Green Lanterns are a space police force…without space I might as well be watching Cops. Agreed. I think it’s obviously a budget issue. Setting it on Earth will make it cheaper and easier to make. Which is why them lantern boys need to be on the big screen.
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Post by Merv on Feb 5, 2023 3:43:47 GMT 1
That’s the one that I’m simultaneously excited about but also the most nervous that they’ll screw it up. Largely due to the ‘terrestrial’ comment, implying that the GL show is going to be Earth based and an Earth problem. It’s ok to start that way but if you set that as the standard for GL content moving forward then you’re really hamstringing the lore and chopping off a ton of potential with the characters. The Green Lanterns are a space police force…without space I might as well be watching Cops. Agreed. I think it’s obviously a budget issue. Setting it on Earth will make it cheaper and easier to make. Which is why them lantern boys need to be on the big screen. Makes me wonder if the big mystery will be who killed Kyle Rainers girlfriend and shoved her in the fridge?
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Post by Chalice_Of_Evil on Feb 5, 2023 23:10:57 GMT 1
Then there was no reason to bring up that it’s female led, because the immediate implication is that my issues with it are related to it being female led. That’s wrong, it’s slander, and you owe me an apology. I've done a lot of apologising in my life, oftentimes for things I shouldn't have even been apologising for...and I've reached the point where enough is enough. I won't apologise for something I didn't even say. If I thought you were sexist, I would've explicitly said "You're being sexist". I also would've said it long before now since I've known about your strong dislike of Wonder Woman for years. "Female-led DC superhero film franchise" is a description of what the movie is (it's what I'd say to describe the movie if on a quiz show and the answer was Wonder Woman). That's all it was intended as.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Feb 5, 2023 23:32:40 GMT 1
Then there was no reason to bring up that it’s female led, because the immediate implication is that my issues with it are related to it being female led. That’s wrong, it’s slander, and you owe me an apology. I've done a lot of apologising in my life, oftentimes for things I shouldn't have even been apologising for...and I've reached the point where enough is enough. I won't apologise for something I didn't even say. If I thought you were sexist, I would've explicitly said "You're being sexist". I also would've said it long before now since I've known about your strong dislike of Wonder Woman for years. "Female-led DC superhero film franchise" is a description of what the movie is (it's what I'd say to describe the movie if on a quiz show and the answer was Wonder Woman). That's all it was intended as. Ok. I fully believe you didn’t mean it but here’s the thing. The way language works is that you only include details that are relevant to what’s being discussed. By saying that I don’t like a female led superhero film, you’re implying that it has something to do with it being female led. You don’t need to refer to it that way unless it’s relevant to the context, just like I don’t refer to Alien as a female led action film. It’s just Alien, unless Im referring to its box office vs other female led films or some such context. Always referring to it as female led as if that’s a part of its title is misleading if it’s not pertinent.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Feb 7, 2023 5:32:49 GMT 1
Agreed. I think it’s obviously a budget issue. Setting it on Earth will make it cheaper and easier to make. Which is why them lantern boys need to be on the big screen. Makes me wonder if the big mystery will be who killed Kyle Rainers girlfriend and shoved her in the fridge? A terrestrial-based Green lantern story could work if a credible space-born threat menaces the Earth sector. As much as I wouldn't want the entire series set on Earth, I don't want the Green Lantern show to be anything like the Guardians franchise. With Gunn at the wheel, there is a real possibility of that happening. Gunn likely decided on streaming because an episodic show was the only way to do justice to so many characters. It is called Lanterns, after all. Even if you tried to make a Green Lantern movie today with just the Earth-based Lanterns, you'd have Guy Gardner, Hal Jordan, Kyle Rayner, John Stewart, and Allan Scott. Everyone has their favorite, and the days of Hal being the most recognizable and popular are long gone. The Green Lantern Corps has eclipsed any one Green Lantern in notoriety. Lanterns is an excellent opportunity to subvert expectations with a DC character(s) in a positive way. I wouldn't be surprised if they draw from the Earth One continuity. It's more grounded, just like all of the smart people like it.
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Post by AQUA CAT! on Feb 12, 2023 6:37:10 GMT 1
I'll need to see some trailers. I like the Green Lantern animated movies. They have a pulp quality to them. The Superman and the Super Woman or Wonder Woman inversion one sure. If Batman Brave and the Bold is the cartoon that I Googled then I'll pass, unless they badass it up, in which case I'm in.
Booster Gold. One of the superheroes furthest in personality from me. I like him. I'm down.
And The Batman II/2 of course. That I'll surely see in theaters. Props if they do a villain that hasn't been done in live action before. Pattinson is a young enough BW that I could see him really struggling with the Court of Owls. It'll be a chance to do with him what they didn't in the first film, which was expose his vulnerability as Bruce Wayne. He was a whole lotta Batman in the last one, which was great, but I suspect he'd be a good Bruce Wayne too.
If there's a Wonder Woman 3... I still think Gal Gadot is one of the best casting choices of the decade for the role. She showed more acting than I'm used to in the last one, and I liked her, but the last one makes me want to watch the next one with the volume off. Of course I'll watch it, but it'll be because I'm expecting an apology for the suspiciously interesting but ultimately very difficult WW84.
Though I'd consider trading them all for the Death Man movie. Which user from here will show up in the post-credit scene to talk about the Sakaar Initiative?
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Post by springheeljack1837 on Feb 17, 2023 3:09:46 GMT 1
I’m just keen for The Batman 2.
Other than that, all I really want is the Ayer cut of Suicide Squad.
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