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Post by AQUA JAR!™ on Apr 8, 2021 19:45:09 GMT 1
Some thoughts.
I definitely think Joker is a comic book movie. It's about the Joker in Gotham City. It doesn't bother me if it's not canon or authentic because those aren't the only bars. Authenticity is as good as the subject material. People treat it like a requirement but it's more like a guide. It doesn't have to be followed. The Joker's been around since the 40's. Not only is it inevitable that he'll change, he already has multiple times.
It's not that I don't understand where people are coming from when they say it's not a comic book movie. It's just that I think what constitutes a comic book movie hasn't finished being defined. It never will as long as people keep adding to it. What are the rules? Are there rules?
I also think it works best as a one-shot graphic novella come to life. It doesn't need tie-ins or sequels; in fact I think it would suffer for it. Nailed it.
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Post by Jayman on Apr 8, 2021 20:18:51 GMT 1
Thank you for the feedback everybody. Some differing views. But it sparked good discussion. Good talk Rusty.
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Post by AQUA KEN! on Apr 11, 2021 2:08:53 GMT 1
Of course it is. Any movie with bruce wayne, martha wayne, thomas wayne, alfred pennyworth AND Joker in it counts as a comic book movie. Joker has had many names and origins, this is just another one. By your logic, I could claim that Rogue One not a STAR WARS movie, it's just a heist film, with a few STAR WARS charcters names in it. Exactly! It's a comic book movie. Fuck the elitists who are salty that it didn't star Batman or some shit.
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Post by Indiana Jones on Apr 11, 2021 4:37:54 GMT 1
Yeah definitely check it out. It’s great.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Apr 27, 2021 18:16:13 GMT 1
It's not a comic book movie It's not a superhero movie It's not a super villain movie It sure as heck is not a Batman movie It's not a Joker movie. So if you just want to watch a drama, that lifts a lot of plot points from "The King of Comedy" and "Taxi Driver", and sticks in some names of comic book characters then you might enjoy it. Im also on this side The telltale sign is that if he wasn’t wearing clown makeup, you wouldn’t be tempted to call this a Joker film. It feels like a film about a random loser who is sadly abused and inadvertently starts a massive riot. His mom has a delusion about the dad being a really rich guy which plays into Arthur’s psychopathy. That’s all good. I enjoy that part of it. But calling the rich guy Thomas Wayne and having the main character’s job be as a clown is just window dressing in terms of being a CBM. I could do this with almost any film. Off the top of my head, literally just adlibbing, let’s take Memento and in the sequel have him trick himself into taking a job as a clown and talking a group of malcontents into hunting down people he suspects. What you’d have is Joker elements laid onto a completely different film, but does that make it a Joker film? Or what if I did a John Wayne Gacy documentary and just added a group of copycat followers. Does that make it a Joker film? Id argue no and that is exactly what Joker is. Still like I said, I really enjoyed what it is.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2021 13:50:34 GMT 1
It's a shit movie
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2021 13:52:22 GMT 1
The real Joker wouldnt even give this clown, pun intended, the time of day. He'd shoot him in the face and laugh. A pale imitation
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2021 13:59:47 GMT 1
It's basically about a basket case who is somewhat in control of himself. Gets treated poorly by 'society' and blames said 'society', then becomes more of a basket case by killing people. The End
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Post by Lord Death Man on Apr 28, 2021 15:53:49 GMT 1
It's not a comic book movie It's not a superhero movie It's not a super villain movie It sure as heck is not a Batman movie It's not a Joker movie. So if you just want to watch a drama, that lifts a lot of plot points from "The King of Comedy" and "Taxi Driver", and sticks in some names of comic book characters then you might enjoy it. Im also on this side The telltale sign is that if he wasn’t wearing clown makeup, you wouldn’t be tempted to call this a Joker film. It feels like a film about a random loser who is sadly abused and inadvertently starts a massive riot. His mom has a delusion about the dad being a really rich guy which plays into Arthur’s psychopathy. That’s all good. I enjoy that part of it. But calling the rich guy Thomas Wayne and having the main character’s job be as a clown is just window dressing in terms of being a CBM. I could do this with almost any film. Off the top of my head, literally just adlibbing, let’s take Memento and in the sequel have him trick himself into taking a job as a clown and talking a group of malcontents into hunting down people he suspects. What you’d have is Joker elements laid onto a completely different film, but does that make it a Joker film? Or what if I did a John Wayne Gacy documentary and just added a group of copycat followers. Does that make it a Joker film? Id argue no and that is exactly what Joker is. Still like I said, I really enjoyed what it is. What's particularly interesting to me about this debate is that the film's director has more or less confirmed the idea that he was not strictly making a comic book movie. In statements (that I admit I might be misremembering), he skewers the genre and its fans and readily admits to exploiting a popular trend he had no interest in to tell a more "important" story. Feel free to jump in here if I've somehow misrepresented his statements. I don't know why anyone would believe that Joker is a comic book movie if the film's director essentially does not. Another telltale sign that Joker is not a comic book movie is that now, some eighteen months from its initial release, it is rarely discussed in the context of comic book movies. Most people latch on to Joker's themes of class warfare and mental illness for ready discussion. People rarely discuss its place in the context of stories set within the world and mythology of the Batman. Its status as an Oscar-winning film is also discussed far more than any relationship it might have to the comic book source material. No one even really remembers or discusses the supporting cast of the film. Contrast this against the Dark Knight Trilogy, in which there is endless debate and discussion that has persisted for a decade or more on its status as one of the greatest Batman sagas ever depicted in any medium. I am not a Batman or Joker diehard or a hater, so "winning" this debate is not my goal. I see the inherent danger to the genre with films like Joker. Batman and Joker fans may be happy with this film, and that's fine by me. I always say, live and let live. All I know is that I don't want to see a movie about a schizophrenic, black homeless vigilante who fashions a shield from a garbage can lid and paints it red, white, and blue get called "Captain America." Not even as a What if...? I was wary about expressing these opinions and pointing out these issues surrounding the film when it first came out. People who share my views tend to get tagged and dismissed. At this point, I don't care if someone has a new popular catchphrase to label me with; it is what it is. I honestly don't think Joker is a comic book movie, but I capitulate that the matter is entirely up to the viewer. That said, the fact that it is subject to interpretation is highly problematic.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Apr 28, 2021 16:23:02 GMT 1
Im also on this side The telltale sign is that if he wasn’t wearing clown makeup, you wouldn’t be tempted to call this a Joker film. It feels like a film about a random loser who is sadly abused and inadvertently starts a massive riot. His mom has a delusion about the dad being a really rich guy which plays into Arthur’s psychopathy. That’s all good. I enjoy that part of it. But calling the rich guy Thomas Wayne and having the main character’s job be as a clown is just window dressing in terms of being a CBM. I could do this with almost any film. Off the top of my head, literally just adlibbing, let’s take Memento and in the sequel have him trick himself into taking a job as a clown and talking a group of malcontents into hunting down people he suspects. What you’d have is Joker elements laid onto a completely different film, but does that make it a Joker film? Or what if I did a John Wayne Gacy documentary and just added a group of copycat followers. Does that make it a Joker film? Id argue no and that is exactly what Joker is. Still like I said, I really enjoyed what it is. I always say, live and let live. All I know is that I don't want to see a movie about a schizophrenic, black homeless vigilante who fashions a shield from a garbage can lid and paints it red, white, and blue get called "Captain America." Not even as a What if...? As someone who took collegiate design courses, which essentially translates to the creative process in general; the big concern is the artificial nature of this. That you could write any story you want, figure out which superhero or popular genre character it’s closest to after you’re done, and then just change a name or two so it can pretend to latch onto that genre, is creatively offensive. It’s snake oil. Im tempted to go back to any action/trippy/sci-fi film the last 3 decades and show how easy it is to change one thing to do this.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Apr 28, 2021 16:32:05 GMT 1
I always say, live and let live. All I know is that I don't want to see a movie about a schizophrenic, black homeless vigilante who fashions a shield from a garbage can lid and paints it red, white, and blue get called "Captain America." Not even as a What if...? As someone who did take collegiate design courses, which essentially translate in to the creative process in general; the big concern is the artificial nature of this. That you could write any story you want, figure out which superhero or popular genre character it’s closest to after you’re done, and then just change a name or two so it can pretend to latch onto that genre, is creatively offensive. It’s snake oil. Im tempted to go back to any action/trippy/sci-fi film the last 3 decades and show how easy it is to change one thing to do this. I tend to agree with that statement. What you describe would be the beginning of a bonafide "comixploitation" genre.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Apr 28, 2021 16:44:01 GMT 1
As someone who did take collegiate design courses, which essentially translate in to the creative process in general; the big concern is the artificial nature of this. That you could write any story you want, figure out which superhero or popular genre character it’s closest to after you’re done, and then just change a name or two so it can pretend to latch onto that genre, is creatively offensive. It’s snake oil. Im tempted to go back to any action/trippy/sci-fi film the last 3 decades and show how easy it is to change one thing to do this. I tend to agree with that statement. What you describe would be the beginning of a bonafide "comixploitation" genre. Right. So let’s do this True Lies - Call Arnold Steve Rogers, Heston Nick Fury (he even has a damn eye patch), the organization SHIELD, and Jamie can be Sharon Carter whyyyyy not. Let’s be completely racist and call every Jackie Chan and Jet Li film a Shang Chi origin Underworld is Blade with a single recast Falling Down is also Joker, just have a riot start in support of him. The Fifth Element is a Nova Origin. Bruce is Richard Rider, the girl is the Celestial Madonna Mantis, the planet he’s on is Xandar, and just have it blow up at the end instead of him saving it. Done. Etc etc etc. I literally just rolled these off the top of my head. It takes no time or effort to do this.
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Post by taylorfirst1 on Apr 28, 2021 17:05:18 GMT 1
I tend to agree with that statement. What you describe would be the beginning of a bonafide "comixploitation" genre. Right. So let’s do this True Lies - Call Arnold Steve Rogers, Heston Nick Fury, the organization SHIELD, and Jamie can be Sharon Carter whyyyyy not. Let’s be completely racist and call every Jackie Chan and Jet Li film a Shang Chi origin Underworld is Blade with a single recast Falling Down is also Joker, just have a riot start in support of him. The Fifth Element is a Nova Origin. Bruce is Richard Rider, the girl is the Celestial Madonna Mantis, the planet he’s on is Xandar, and just have it blow up at the end instead of him saving it. Done. Etc etc etc. I literally just rolled these off the top of my head. It takes no time or effort to do this. Take the movie "Death Wish" 1974, change the leads name to Bruce Wayne and the city to Gotham and BAM! it's a Batman movie.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Apr 28, 2021 17:15:21 GMT 1
Right. So let’s do this True Lies - Call Arnold Steve Rogers, Heston Nick Fury, the organization SHIELD, and Jamie can be Sharon Carter whyyyyy not. Let’s be completely racist and call every Jackie Chan and Jet Li film a Shang Chi origin Underworld is Blade with a single recast Falling Down is also Joker, just have a riot start in support of him. The Fifth Element is a Nova Origin. Bruce is Richard Rider, the girl is the Celestial Madonna Mantis, the planet he’s on is Xandar, and just have it blow up at the end instead of him saving it. Done. Etc etc etc. I literally just rolled these off the top of my head. It takes no time or effort to do this. Take the movie "Death Wish" 1974, change the leads name to Bruce Wayne and the city to Gotham and BAM! it's a Batman movie. Dont hit me but now I have to see Death Wish lol
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Post by taylorfirst1 on Apr 28, 2021 17:21:23 GMT 1
Take the movie "Death Wish" 1974, change the leads name to Bruce Wayne and the city to Gotham and BAM! it's a Batman movie. Dont hit me but now I have to see Death Wish lol Don't even talk to me until you have
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Post by Lord Death Man on Apr 28, 2021 18:42:57 GMT 1
Dont hit me but now I have to see Death Wish lol Don't even talk to me until you have Yeah, fun fact, most of my podcast intros are inspired by the trailer marketing for films in the Death Wish franchise.
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Post by Jayman on Apr 28, 2021 21:59:50 GMT 1
Take the movie "Death Wish" 1974, change the leads name to Bruce Wayne and the city to Gotham and BAM! it's a Batman movie. Dont hit me but now I have to see Death Wish lol whaaaat 😱 😁
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Post by Jayman on Apr 28, 2021 22:02:23 GMT 1
Since I started this thread, I would like to let everybody know that I have not watched it and deleted it off my dvr. I needed the space and was not interested in watching it at this time. Maybe I will change my mind in the future
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Apr 28, 2021 22:18:30 GMT 1
Since I started this thread, I would like to let everybody know that I have not watched it and deleted it off my dvr. I needed the space and was not interested in watching it at this time. Maybe I will change my mind in the future to put you at ease. It’s worth a watch. It’s not must watch.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Apr 28, 2021 22:19:48 GMT 1
Dont hit me but now I have to see Death Wish lol whaaaat 😱 😁 I know. I know. I might get on the chat room Friday and you can publicly flog me.
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Post by Jan El Señor on Apr 29, 2021 1:00:55 GMT 1
I haven't watched it yet. It may be good, but the trailers make it look like one of those movies that's too far up its own ass....
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Post by Jayman on Apr 29, 2021 3:46:26 GMT 1
I know. I know. I might get on the chat room Friday and you can publicly flog me. we actually watched that movie once on one of the Friday night chats too. 😃 I enjoyed the 2nd one too but the first one I think is the much better movie
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Post by Lord Death Man on Apr 29, 2021 4:51:24 GMT 1
I know. I know. I might get on the chat room Friday and you can publicly flog me. we actually watched that movie once on one of the Friday night chats too. 😃 I enjoyed the 2nd one too but the first one I think is the much better movie One is the best of the lot. Two is good, and three is a lot of fun. The rest you can skip unless you’re a Charles Bronson diehard.
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Post by Jayman on Apr 29, 2021 4:55:55 GMT 1
we actually watched that movie once on one of the Friday night chats too. 😃 I enjoyed the 2nd one too but the first one I think is the much better movie One is the best of the lot. Two and is good, and three is a lot of fun. The rest you skip unless you’re a Charles Bronson diehard. in the 2nd one and I think the 3rd he kills more people but the story in the first one was hard to top. I don’t think I’ve ever watched 4 and 5 but I may have it on disc somewhere
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Post by Lord Death Man on Apr 29, 2021 6:37:45 GMT 1
One is the best of the lot. Two and is good, and three is a lot of fun. The rest you skip unless you’re a Charles Bronson diehard. in the 2nd one and I think the 3rd he kills more people but the story in the first one was hard to top. I don’t think I’ve ever watched 4 and 5 but I may have it on disc somewhere Bronson’s acting is very good in the first one. The fourth is barely watchable, but you can get through it. You’ve got to be a stone-cold completist to watch number five. Death Wish pro tip: Part 2 has awesome music by Jimmy Page.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2021 6:57:02 GMT 1
Since I started this thread, I would like to let everybody know that I have not watched it and deleted it off my dvr. I needed the space and was not interested in watching it at this time. Maybe I will change my mind in the future Welcome to the family Jayman. You made the right choice
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Post by Jayman on Apr 29, 2021 7:15:25 GMT 1
in the 2nd one and I think the 3rd he kills more people but the story in the first one was hard to top. I don’t think I’ve ever watched 4 and 5 but I may have it on disc somewhere Bronson’s acting is very good in the first one. The fourth is barely watchable, but you can get through it. You’ve got to be a stone-cold completist to watch number five. Death Wish pro tip: Part 2 has awesome music by Jimmy Page. oh that’s right I forgot about jimmy page 🤘
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Post by taylorfirst1 on Apr 29, 2021 15:14:07 GMT 1
I know. I know. I might get on the chat room Friday and you can publicly flog me. we actually watched that movie once on one of the Friday night chats too. 😃 I enjoyed the 2nd one too but the first one I think is the much better movie The Deathwish franchise is similar to the Rambo franchise in that the first movie is a very serious and dramatic film and the sequels are much more action oriented and comic-booky.
The first is by far the best but I really enjoy the second one too. The third is a total Golan and Globus WTF monstrosity that you can't help but enjoy. The other 2 I have seen but I barely remember anything in them.
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Post by AQUA CAT! on May 1, 2021 0:33:21 GMT 1
I'm a little torn about the interpretation of how the film came to be, i.e. what if the Joker, but in a different movie. That's what so many movies already are.
What if Die Hard but on a plane? Passenger 57.
What if Romeo and Juliet but a musical in New York City? West Side Story.
What if The Great Escape but on a farm? Chicken Run.
The list goes on. What if Shakespeare's Macbeth but in feudal Japan, you get Throne of Blood. Even Robin Hood (2018) was The Dark Knight in disguise.
Just for something different, I'll address some issues/arguments I've seen around. I don't care even a single bit about authenticity, or "respecting the property". Changing the source material is fine with me. It's fine but it's not a pass; the results have to actually work (looking at you, Jared Leto). It doesn't bother me if Joaquin Phoenix' Joker doesn't look like Joker from the comics. I'm not about to search 80 years of Joker images to confirm it. He looks like the Joker at the end. I don't recall seeing Heath Ledger's Joker's face slits in any of the cartoons. And why doesn't Batman dance anymore?
What is Joker about? It's an origin story. A hypothetical what-if origin story about the birth of a monster. Like Hitler's art school years. The Joker isn't supposed to be a POV character. Joaquin Phoenix stated he went to great lengths to not make Joker somebody viewers could identify with. It's ugly but he's hardly the first character to kill one of his parents. It doesn't make them sympathetic. Joker killed his mother to free himself. All his best moments are awful to anybody but him.
What is Joker really about? It's a cautionary tale that even the smallest fire can become an inferno. Particularly unattended fires, which tend to take off in areas people wish not to see, like the disadvantaged and mentally ill.
I've heard the film criticized as a film for incels. Who's the incel? Joker himself? He gets compared a lot to Travis Bickle from Taxi Driver (great movie), but they're so similar. Incel as a term didn't exist 30 years ago but Deniro and Phoenix both play guys who couldn't get laid at an orgy.
Or is it us, the viewer? I'm not an incel. I watched the film with friends of mine who're a married couple. They're not incels. It's an insult wrapped in a criticism. No one has time for that.
As for fans, I don't consider myself a part of a/the fandom. I am sorry if some fans felt misled or disappointed by the marketing. That ain't my fault. In fact, I thought it was going to be terrible because of the marketing. Ads didn't make me want to see it at all. Morbid curiosity did. I loathe almost all things fan-service; don't service who you think I am, just make a good movie. Looking back, the ads were consistent with what it was. The only misleading was fans misleading themselves, which I feel bad for, but it ain't on me.
On the other hand, I didn't need Batman's parent's murder shoehorned in at the end. Maybe one musical cue I felt was off. I don't think Joker was snubbed for any awards it didn't win, nor was it unjustly awarded for what it did win. Don't care about box office. Don't care about critic's reviews, positive or negative. Anybody can dress up their emotions with words but when you get down to it, whether you like a film or not is a gut feeling.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2021 9:56:52 GMT 1
I really wanted to like the film too. I was supporting it before the movie came out.
The make-up and the suit were great imo, the casting of the Joker too. Just everything else was lame and that stung, which is like 95% of the movie
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